Hello All -

I have notice the following trends in Website Design, and wondered what you think?

• Hosting is dieing. Not the service (people still need a place to do their business online) -- the concept. Clients do not care about getting thousands of emails, a huge amount of disk space, etc. They just want an easy way to get up and running online. They just want their website.
• Content Management Systems will replace "old-school" websites soon -- their advantages will make individually built web pages with HTML a thing of the past.
• Say Goodbye to straight HTML -- XHTML (and XML) are taking over.

What say you? Take the poll, and I look forward to the discussion.

Yours,
Scott

Sorry, can't agree with any of them.. I don't even think HTML is going to be replaced by XHTML.

There's been a noticable increase in customers wanting editable sites but not by a huge amount. I'd say about 50% of the sites I work on run on some sort of CMS/shopping cart, the rest are basically static page sites.

No can't agree with any of them either;

It's mainly the over-selling, clueless hosting resellers that waffle on about how much "disk space" you get anyway, and they soon fall by the wayside when clients wise up.

XHTML is NOT a replacement for HTML anyway.

in my humble opinion, html is already being replaced by xhtml. but these are not two different languages. xhtml is just an improved and stricter version of html. so technically speaking html is not being replaced, but it is being upgraded.

using a cms like joomla or drupal etc. is always a better option if you need the use of a server-side scripting language like php, since the framework and all the functionality is already available. you can enable/disable, add, delete a feature as and when needed. and, if the client needs to update anything on the website, he can do so very easily. but if you are going to develop a static info-only website that does not change too often, then it is better to go for hand-coding or softwares like dreamweaver, since this gives you a lot more control over the visual design, than in any cms.

and about hosting. i really did not understand what you were trying to say. obviously, the concept is not dead. or we all wouldnt be on this forum!! about clients asking for a website and nothing else, well what would they do with a website when they dont have a place to host it? these days designers are including hosting in the design packages, so the client who does not know much about all the technology, would not even know anything about it.

I would like to see anyone here build an apartment rental site, for example, on top of drupal. Custom coding is here and will be here for a while. Drupal can do simple things, but when it comes to custom data management it fails miserably.

Hello All -

Hey... very interesting discussion.

• The CMS, WordPress, now has close to 2 million people using the hosted version (at WordPress.com), and at least 1 million more installed on private hosting servers (from WordPress.org). Not to mention JOOMLA, Drupal, and other excellent CMS applications. So, unless someone can show that these numbers are somehow being exceeded by "old-school" websites, then I remain convinced that CMS websites are replacing old-school sites, at a rapid pace.
• Good point about XHTML not "replacing", but upgrading HTML. Maybe that's what those who said HTML was not dying meant. Bottom line... if you want to get your pages/sites validated -- you'll be using a flavor of XHTML before too long.
• Regarding Hosting (the traditional concept) dying, as well, I submit point number one above, again. Huh? Here's my logic:
  1. Millions of people now host blogs... and full blown websites at WordPress.com, a hosted service.
  2. THey don't have to think about, or buy into the traditional "Hosting" specs or features
  3. But... they are still "hosted" by Automattic.com (the company behind WordPress).
  BINGO. People get what they want (an easy to use website), without their eyes glossing over about "hosting".

I look forward to your replies.

Yours, Scott

I'm finding more of my clients are asking for CMS sites but they don't necessarily want something full blown such as Joomla. Some of them just want editable regions within their pages.

The other trend I've noticed is for companies to want a blog to run alongside their standard site. I've done 6 in the last 4 months.

I agree on the CMS point but not the hosting... Customers who want a CMS will need a hosting account... well unless you give them a package deal like we do with some customers. We offer a hosting account with Joomla installed and charge $20/month. This is more expensive than our basic hosting accounts, but we provide extended support for the basic functions of Joomla. Our customers appreciated the support we provide them for basic questions and help related to Joomla.

But yes I do agree more and more customers are requiring a CMS based solution since many of them have problems getting help from their initial designer of their site. Many designers design the initial site and are no where to be found when the customer needs updates made. This has been the main reason customers have asked for a CMS based solution... so they don't have to rely on a single web designer for updates.

1) Hosting isn't dead or dying, because a website needs a stable, reliable web host. It never will die for this reason. You can't have a website in a vacuum.

2) The list of "excellent" CMS applications that you have provided are poorly coded, rigid, "one-size-fits-all" applications that serve a small percentage of websites. Anyone who has ever tried to hack WordPress and do something that hasn't yet been done (e.g. customized category feeds, something I did just last Thursday on a client's private blog) will tell you that the thing is limited.

Your statistics also lie, since they don't cover the successful, major sites. Take a look at Amazon; Google; any major professional sports site; any major news site; any major site period, for that matter. Do you see any of <em>them</em> running off of WordPress or Dumbla or (insert BSCMS here)? No, you don't, and there's a very good reason for that; the CMSes don't fit major site needs, and take a large amount of work just to get something that would even fit a minor site's needs.

This isn't to say that something like a WordPress doesn't have its place. If you're running a small site that the script is meant for (e.g. a blog), then yeah, go for it. No serious designer/developer would ever use it to run a commercial website that (s)he intends to grow, however.

DIY = the only way to fly for anything serious.

3) Validation has nothing to do with XHTML vs. HTML. Pages can still validate to HTML standards. And conventional HTML won't ever die, because as Hirst pointed out very few people have even started messing around with XML and other things. I think XHTML is making inroads, but it never will fully replace HTML and may not even reach the same level of designer acceptance. I voted for this one, because it is technically "replacing" HTML, but never will fully "replace" it.

Hello Adam (& all) -

I'll address your points (thanks for the discussion... I believe a good debate -- in the best educational sense - is very helpful for us all), one at a time:

1. Hosting isn't dead because people still need it. Agreed! Surprised? Look at what I said, "Hosting THE CONCEPT is dead". I mean that for new clients, the technical specs about the server they are on (most don't know what a server is), is becoming unimportant (dying), and the idea of what you can do for your business online (CMS, etc.) is rising in the marketplace.
2. You state that CMS applications are limited and "poorly coded", then single out WordPress, for being unable to custom code RSS feeds. Huh? Limited? Tell that to over 1,000 plugin programmer who have extended its capabilities and continue to do so. Tell that to thousands of businesses ably meeting their business mission online using WordPress (and Drupal, JOOMLA, etc.). These are evolving systems. Your comments seem to overlook the fact that new code gets written, revised and updated. Your argument would be analogous to looking at the Mac OS in 1994 and saying it is limited and can never (never?) change, develop and grow. As to major sites, without naming a long list -- how about Ford Motors? It's Auto Show website is entirely run on WordPress. See: http://autoshows.ford.com/
3. Validation has everything to do with XHTML versus HTML IF... XHTML becomes the new standard and HTML is deprecated. What it looks like to me is.... we're both right. The W3C.org has now accepted the work on HTML 5, and continues with XHTML 2. PREDICTION: the two will converge, and the new, updated upgraded HTML will include elements of XML. The future of the web depends on it.

Bottom line: Programs like WordPress, and (X)HTML are not limited because they can be upgraded, revised, and rewritten. Concepts, like "Hosting", are limited in a marketing sense and bound to phase out and die away.

Yours -
Scott

1) What you can do for a business still depends on technical specs. A good designer/developer will always look at and want the technical specs of a server. They'll want to know things like how many email addresses, how much storage space, etc. and so on. Things that a CMS can't cover, even if it was good.

2) I will tell that to the over 1,000 programmers who build extensions for it, as you put it. I'll tell it to anyone using it. I'll tell it to anyone, because it happens to be true. It can grow...to a point. This is almost exactly what people said about things like DMOZ and what they're saying about social media sites as well. They all have the same flaw: they're open to everyone, including those with evil intentions. Sooner or later, like all volunteer projects, self-interests, conflicts and developmental slowdowns take over. It happens offline all the time, and it will happen online.

The reason that I mentioned the customization of RSS feeds is because it was the thing that led to me discovering the outer limit of WordPress. I couldn't do what I wanted to do, and there was no plugin or extension for my specific application. My client was the one who made the observation that "Adam, you could probably build this quicker and better if you weren't hamstrung by WordPress." This was the same client that led me to start even using WordPress in the first place (to see what we could do with it).

To take this in a slightly different direction, consider offshore outsourcing. Most people jumped on that bandwagon (and a lot still haven't gotten off yet), because the labor is relatively dirt-cheap. Now people are slowly starting to realize what some of us already knew the whole time: the labor's cheap for a **** good reason. You get what you pay for, magnified by a factor of 10. If that happens with cheap labor, what do we reasonably have the right to expect from free labor?

There seems to be this prevailing thought that Open Source will lead to these awesome libraries of code to draw from and that webmasters will be able to pick and choose from all these perfectly coded extensions and plugins and CMSes to build their sites with. Not gonna happen, people. Sooner or later, these things will grow too large, require maintenance that they'll never get, and grind to a halt. It happened with DMOZ, and it will happen here. Most people will never see it coming, though.

As far as what Ford's doing...so what? You've got a company shutting down North American plants and getting their asses handed to them by Asian car manufacturers. Let them do what they want, but there's no way I'm taking my medicine from them.

The problem with your argument of "businesses are meeting their business missions online" using these things is that it can neither be proven nor disproven. You don't have access to the financial/business figures associated with the businesses running Joomla/Drupal/etc., and neither do I. I'd almost bet that most of these sites aren't doing what they think they are, since most business owners (and webmasters for that matter) haven't got the slightest idea how to analyze the financial results of their sites.

Sooner or later, people will eventually start to realize this too. I just don't think it'll happen for a few years, but it will happen. It's not bad software, but people who start putting too much commercial stake in it are in for a very rude awakening.

Hello Adam & All -

You are making a great case for a measure of due caution as a company builds a major online presence using an Open Source platform. I think we're agreed there -- and learning what other webmasters think would make a great survey/thread. But where you focus on potential weaknesses,there are also potential, and documented strengths. Plus, there are strong programming communities and in some cases commercial companies backing up and providing support for programs such as WordPress (Automattic.com).

Regarding company performance results for those using an Open Source CMS solution -- public companies report stock results. The stock price for Ford, for example, has ranges from a high of 16 to a low of about 7 in the last five years. Of course, this is not the metric to gauge the success of a website, but it does NOT show that Ford is failing.

Point by point:

• Technical specs of servers: they're all pretty much the same. Technical support is much more important.
• CMS's can grow "to a point". To a point? What point? Where, precisely, is the limitation? What about a complete overhaul as Apple did when it moved the Mac OS to unix? Can't that be done at any time?
• Open Source CMS' are "open to everyone" (to hack, I believe you meant). Well, so too are proprietary systems hackable... makes for a great Virus protection industry. Some CMS companies spend a lot of time and resources on security. Can you name some major hacks to support your point? I'll just use one proprietary software company's name that has been continually hacked: Microsoft (how many times has this large, well funded company failed to prevent incursions?).
• Outsourcing doesn't work? There are both horror stories, and success stories. We don't need to generate lists of each, but again you seem to look only at the negative.
• Most business owners/webmasters "haven't got the slightest idea how to analyze the financial results of their sites." How many cannot provide good metrics? Again, some do not, some do.

Finally, you end with a note that people building on Open Source CMS solutions are in for a rude awakening? Why? What about those relying on a programmer who dies? What about those relying on a proprietary software for a company that goes out of business? Sure, you can look at all the risks, but business is about taking risks, and preparing diligently to cover any contingencies.

Bottom Line: If you go into a CMS website solution with your eyes open, and do your due diligence with a good contingency plan, and subcontract reliable programmers who know your system -- you are at least on as solid a footing as relying on proprietary software. And, you'll save a lot of money too.

Yours -
Scott

On the CMS discussion

I see lots of great open source CMS's that offer a wide variety of solutions to a great list of requirements. I don't think one person or a team of people starting now from scratch can get up to speed with the solutions some of these open source programmers have come up with. Numerous hours of testing and bug fixing has been devoted to build them. And I want to believe security holes are closing fast since lots of people test those solutions.

I am not saying that those CMSs are Everything to Everyone. I see them as TOOLKITS that CAN get the job done. An experienced developer that has worked with them long enough should know their limitations and use them wisely and use a different TOOLKIT if one does not fit the requirements.

Big corporations can actually afford to have a whole team of experts build a custom made solution just for them. Smaller clients can't afford that and for the money they are willing to pay CMS twicking and customizing is probably the best solution.

While it may look like hosting "the concept" is dying, I really don't think that is true. What is really happening instead, is that the web is becoming more and more accessible to non-programmers and non-geeks. Anyone can set up a blog, post videos, show photos, etc.-- and that's why services such as wordpress.com, YouTube, and Flickr have exploded in the past few years. There are still plenty of programmers and web designers (and aspiring coders and designers) who have their own website, and pay attention to what hosting they are paying for. I don't think there is any evidence that the number of clients are declining, either.

CMS's and similar solutions have their place and use, but often times they are misused like wearing gloves on feet. If someone wants to simply create a daily blog, the first word out of my mouth is going to be Wordpress. If they want a site that's more than just a blog, and they plan for the future, hope to grow, want to be able to scale, dislike the insecurity of plugins coded by random developers, and want to be able to easily add new site features without the hassle of working with a limited script, then they aren't going to want Wordpress or Drupal or Joomla. They would either DIY or hire an experienced contractor/freelancer.

HTML will remain the basis of web design !

CMS have different targets and usually used as a combination of forums blog, membership downloads and such, i mean come on, if you want to make a webpage about simple stuff, ud use HTML right ?

Originally Posted by OSWebMaster

Hello Adam & All -

Finally, you end with a note that people building on Open Source CMS solutions are in for a rude awakening? Why? What about those relying on a programmer who dies? What about those relying on a proprietary software for a company that goes out of business? Sure, you can look at all the risks, but business is about taking risks, and preparing diligently to cover any contingencies.

I agree. I had this problem with my old web hosting billing system. At the time (10 years ago) it was one of the best solutions out there.... in fact one of the only. Now the developer is no where to be found and has refused to provide support for the software which came with 'lifetime support'. I have switched over to a new billing system.. still not open source but I'm hoping this developer doesn't do the same thing to his customers as the last one. All I can do is hope when it comes to proprietary solutions. I 'hope' the software is taken in the direction it needs to be take. There is an opensource option I could have used but its development is well into its infancy and I don't think it is going anywhere. The same cannot be said for the web development market. Just take a look at the extensions for Joomla alone. Not all are free and not everyone is working as a volunteer. There are commercial interests and solutions for Joomla too.

Just take Redhat as an example of a commercial interest in an opensource project. There is room for commercial enterprise in opensource solutions. This is one of the key concepts of opensource. Also I remember someone saying open source will never dominate a market, but look at the hosting industry, Linux is the dominate platform for hosting providers.

Before you anti-CMS people shoot down Joomla, go take a look at the Extension directory at http://extensions.joomla.org/. Being anti-CMS, I am sure you haven't look at it either ever or in awhile. Don't just shoot it down and look at the negatives you feel it has. Any solution is going to have its pros and cons. I have a feeling some custom programmers don't like CMS cause it's a threat to them. Why would customers need a programmer when using a CMS is quicker, less expensive, provides better support for a 'standard' site, & does everything they need it to do? Yes I said it... 'better support'. Depending on a community (one that has commercial interests as well) is much better then depending on a single programmer in my opinion.

Using Joomla I can build 'standard' functional sites faster, better and they're more cost effective than if i tried to build a custom solution. I'm not a custom programmer and can't imagine what it takes to develop some of the functionality from scratch that I can build in a few hours hours using Joomla. My hat is off to you custom programmers. It really does take an excellent set of skills to build some of the sites you build but when I can build a site with the same functionality using opensource solutions at least my solution is backed by a strong community and not just a single developer. Support you provide to your customers for your custom solution is limited to your lifespan and/or skills. Support for an opensource CMS isn't limited to how long I live or to my skill set.

I'm in the process of building a site for a customer and one of their main concerns was what if something happened to me. Would they still be able to easily manage, host & obtain support for the site? Would another developer be able to figure out how to maintain the site? Using an opensource CMS like Joomla they can easily find someone else to host and maintain the site for them. At least they won't be stuck highn-dry if I built a custom solution and then fell off the face of the earth.

Support is key for customers and finding support for a popular CMS like Joomla won't be hard to do.

As far as CMS is going to replace standard sites, yes I agree strongly. The argument was for 'standard sites' not full custom solutions. It's naive to think a customer would want a solution that doesn't have a CMS, takes longer to build & is more expensive. Why depend on just one custom developer who charges more? It's a huge risk for them to put the sole responsibility for their web presence on one developer. What if something happened to that developer?

Also I think this argument should be if opensource CMS will replace HTML cause what are the majority of you custom builders doing anyways? You're building custom CMS solutions for them. They don't want to have to just depend on you in the future. They want to be able to take things into their own hands or find someone else to manage their already-created-solution. One of the main reasons a company doesn't have a website is because they don't know how to create or manage one. Now don't you think if they had a CMS in place there would be a greater potential for them to at least maintain or find someone to maintain it for them?

I have a friend who runs a casino party website. They got a custom solution built with no CMS. Finding their developer and getting updates to the site is like pulling teeth.

They asked me to help but the site is a mess and I just don't want to handle that headache. After I explained I could convert the site to Joomla for them and showed them how they would managed the content the could now see the right way to built a standard site. The only bad thing about this is they don't have the money to pay me to do it cause they wasted their budget on the custom designer.

They're happy with the look of their site. They just don't like the fact they need to contact the developer for everything they need changed.. and he's hard to get a hold of. At least with a CMS they're not stuck in this bad predicament.

Actually, the argument was whether or not CMSes would replace "old-school" websites. Not only that, one must presuppose that there is a "standard" site or a set of "standard site classifications" under which all things must fit. Most good website designers/developers will realize that a true "standard" site does not exist, and that at least some customization will need to be made to build a quality website.

frost really hit the nail square on the head here. Open source CMS software has a place...for simple things. If you think you want a simple 5-page website that you'll have to update every so often, or a minor degree of additional functionality, maybe a calendar or something, then there's an argument that could be made for an open source CMS. Even if it's just a blog, then yeah, okay.

Now...what happens when a scenario occurs that requires something additional? Here are five not-so-hypothetical examples:

1) Client wants to be able to download multiple spreadsheets containing differing information (customers of that client, monthly finances, individual service finances, etc.) in real time (in other words, generated on the fly and dumped out).

2) Client wants to be able to download something that they can open up in Access and query offline.

3) Client has offline database that they wish to transfer selectable data from and create an online contract from it.

4) Client requires an industry-specific quoting system, with expiration date and third-party payment processor not named PayPal.

5) Client requires a multiple part form, and validation for one part is based on a varying number of checkboxes being checked for a specifically-selected category.

e.g. Category 1 requires 5 checkboxes to be checked, Category 2 requires 4, Category 3 requires 6, Category 4 requires 13.

Based on your list of plugins, Dave, I don't see a thing that would work for any of them, never mind all 5. This is exactly what frost is talking about; things that suit a particular business model and give it a competitive edge/unique selling proposition (in fact, I'll guarantee you won't find an example of what I'm referring to for #3). Whether most businesses realize it or not, there are a lot of things that a good developer will be able to do and think of to give that business a long-term competitive edge.

Dave, you're not a programmer, so you're the perfect person to ask: what would you do if you encountered these types of situations?

1) Look for Plugin 1, Plugin 2, Plugin 3, Plugin 4 dotdotdot until you hopefully found Plugin X that would work?

2) Ask "the community" to come up with a solution?

3) Give the customer up because it's outside of your range?

4) Find a programmer that can do decent custom work?

Unless you give up the customer (3), you're lacking in control just as much by relying on "the open source community" as you are with one programmer. You're relying on a bunch of random strangers to provide a solution, now or eventually, for a problem they may or may not even care about. In other words, you still have to relinquish the control, and in your case relying on the theory that a greater number of people will supply an answer that much quicker.

The same cannot be said for the web development market. Just take a look at the extensions for Joomla alone. Not all are free and not everyone is working as a volunteer. There are commercial interests and solutions for Joomla too.

I don't really count "commercial interests and solutions" in this equation, and the reason has to do with fixes. Like frost (and I earlier) pointed out, security is a huge potential issue with open source. Let's say you spend $40 on one of these "commercial solutions" and it gets hacked (something that is inherently easier to do with open source because...well, the source is open!)

Who's going to fix that?

A volunteer? Not bloody likely...the script was sold. Most volunteers aren't going to help someone with paid commercial interests.
Another supplier with a commercial product? Possibly, but then the same potential issue is still there (i.e. security issue).
The company itself? There's no difference here between this and a closed-source solution. It is no more likely that the company itself would solve the problem if it were open source than if it were closed source.

As a result, the evolution of a commercial project from a security standpoint could potentially be slowed down or halted.

It's naive to think a customer would want a solution that doesn't have a CMS, takes longer to build & is more expensive.

It's naive to think a solution that isn't open source takes longer to build and is more expensive, too. What's your point?

Support is key for customers and finding support for a popular CMS like Joomla won't be hard to do.

...and when 15 different Joomla "experts" bastardize code and a site to the point that it's barely recognizable, then what? (That happens a lot more than you'd think.)

I have a friend who runs a casino party website. They got a custom solution built with no CMS. Finding their developer and getting updates to the site is like pulling teeth.

Then they hired a developer that didn't suit their needs and need to look for another one. It happens with employees/suppliers in all businesses. And yet, "group logic" will somehow prevail and the collective wisdom of all of the developers is somehow intended to solve this. An idiot can be an individual or part of a group, and it's more likely that the group will contain an idiot that will drag it down.

Dave, look at DMOZ and Wikipedia as two example of how "open" solutions that used group logic have failed.

After I explained I could convert the site to Joomla for them and showed them how they would managed the content the could now see the right way to built a standard site. The only bad thing about this is they don't have the money to pay me to do it cause they wasted their budget on the custom designer.

And if your idea were profitable and fit your friend's business needs, then this should be a non-issue. Your friend may indirectly be trying to tell you something.

Also I think this argument should be if opensource CMS will replace HTML cause what are the majority of you custom builders doing anyways? You're building custom CMS solutions for them. They don't want to have to just depend on you in the future. They want to be able to take things into their own hands or find someone else to manage their already-created-solution. One of the main reasons a company doesn't have a website is because they don't know how to create or manage one. Now don't you think if they had a CMS in place there would be a greater potential for them to at least maintain or find someone to maintain it for them?

First of all, this is a silly question since HTML is the required minimum for webpages. So no CMS, custom or otherwise, will replace HTML.

Second, you're not really making a point here again. You're just sort of rambling and you haven't tied it together at the end. Where are you going with this?

I have a feeling some custom programmers don't like CMS cause it's a threat to them.

That's quite possibly true. Like most things, however, the threat is only posed to those who end up on the wrong side of the "survival of the fittest" equation. The developers who don't offer proper support or who don't know how to do anything, for example, would see this as a threat, and there are a buttload of them out there.

I've actually found myself on the opposite side of the spectrum as you, Dave: I've run into multiple situations where customers have either outgrown a standard CMS solution or, as frost again quite rightly pointed out, were provided with a "standard CMS solution" that not only didn't fit their business, but was poorly coded.

What open source CMSes and their associated plugins provide is a low-risk, low-reward alternative to the person who doesn't want to do all that much with their site. But a successful business owner will think of ways to expand his/er site to the outer edges and beyond of that CMS, and that's where you need a custom programmer, like it or not. Most sites actually fall into that category, but there's a dearth of talent on the web design/development side that can make those customer needs happen. That's the deeper issue here.

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

Actually, the argument was whether or not CMSes would replace "old-school" websites. Not only that, one must presuppose that there is a "standard" site or a set of "standard site classifications" under which all things must fit. Most good website designers/developers will realize that a true "standard" site does not exist, and that at least some customization will need to be made to build a quality website.

Come on, are you kidding me? I think we all have a basic understanding of what an 'old-school' or 'standard' site is and what the typical customer considers a standard site.

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

frost really hit the nail square on the head here. Open source CMS software has a place...for simple things. If you think you want a simple 5-page website that you'll have to update every so often, or a minor degree of additional functionality, maybe a calendar or something, then there's an argument that could be made for an open source CMS. Even if it's just a blog, then yeah, okay.

I highly disagree. Joomla can be used to build sites far more advanced than a simple 5 page site... with a calendar. Checkout http://www.joomlaawards.com/

A site that uses community builder, member subscriptions, calendar, photo gallery, videos, forum, store, download manager, ad manager, ratings and reviews, directories, newsletters, private messaging, podcasts, chat, RSS, SEO friends urls, forum, store, affiliate program & more I wouldn't consider a 'simple' site. All of which can be built using Joomla. You're trying to tell me Joomla is only good for building a simple 5 page site with a calendar or two when in reality it can be used to build a site that posses all of the above functionality.

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

Now...what happens when a scenario occurs that requires something additional? Here are five not-so-hypothetical examples:

Please keep in mind my target customer is not the same customers as yours but if I had customers come to me with the following I'd do my best to provide them a cost effective solution that works. Please keep in mind I do rely on the open source community, custom programmers & third party services if I do not know how to provide a particular solution.

Also your scenarios are very vague. It’s hard for me to tell you the exact solution I would use without any specific details.

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

1) Client wants to be able to download multiple spreadsheets containing differing information (customers of that client, monthly finances, individual service finances, etc.) in real time (in other words, generated on the fly and dumped out).

I'd first need to know what industry they are in and see if there is solution available for them already. I don’t always use Joomla, I sometimes use third party solutions. Like I said before there's no sense re-inventing the wheel as I can see a lot of custom programmers like to do. Almost every business segment has multiple customer management solutions available already. If it was a dentist I would use Dentrix. If it was a Private Investigator, I would have them use www.trackops.com. If it was a hosting company I would use www.whmcs.com. If it was a school I would use www.blackbaud.com. The list goes on-an-on. I can’t tell you a solution I would provide until I know what industry they are in.

I am working on a Joomla based site which does handle member management using the AEC component at http://extensions.joomla.org/compone...367/Itemid,35/

It really depends on the particular business and type of site they want developed. Your scenario is way to vague for me to give a concrete answer.

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

2) Client wants to be able to download something that they can open up in Access and query offline.

Download something? What’s this something? An Access database to query offline? If they just need to download an Access database via the web you could use DocMan at http://extensions.joomla.org/compone...,82/Itemid,35/

You can manage downloads via Docman and restrict the download to registered or users with special permissions.

I am not too familiar with Access but if they just need to download an Access database file offline this can be easily done using docman.

I'm always honest with the customers. If I can't do something I won’t BS and claim I can provide them with a solution. I would at least see what they are using the Access database for and see if there is another solution available with a more modern database solution. Access really? People still use Access?

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

3) Client has offline database that they wish to transfer selectable data from and create an online contract from it.

I'd need more details on this to see what sort of solution is available. I'd see if this database could be brought online and use the Database Query component at http://extensions.joomla.org/compone...326/Itemid,35/

If you're referring to form collection...you can just use one of the many advanced form components which can save the data to a MySQL database within Joomla. Here's an example http://extensions.joomla.org/compone...245/Itemid,35/. The client could then login to Joomla's admin interface using SSL to obtain the data.

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

4) Client requires an industry-specific quoting system, with expiration date and third-party payment processor not named Paypal.

Industry specific? Depends on the industry. This is too vague for me to tell you what type of solution is available. If I found something that was based on Joomla I would use it if I found it was a well written component. If I found a third party solution not based on Joomla I'd consider using that instead. I wouldn’t develop it myself since I do not have the expertise nor support staff to support a custom software solution. I'd basically search the internet looking for the best solution for them. I'm a consultant not a programmer.

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

5) Client requires a multiple part form, and validation for one part is based on a varying number of checkboxes being checked for a specifically-selected category.

e.g. Category 1 requires 5 checkboxes to be checked, Category 2 requires 4, Category 3 requires 6, Category 4 requires 13.

Can probably be done using an advanced form component for Joomla. If not I could find a Joomla programmer at www.joomlancers.com to build the component for me.

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

Dave, you're not a programmer, so you're the perfect person to ask: what would you do if you encountered these types of situations?

1) Look for Plugin 1, Plugin 2, Plugin 3, Plugin 4 dotdotdot until you hopefully found Plugin X that would work?

If I don’t find a Joomla component that works I can usually find a non-Joomla software solution that does. If not it’s not worth my time finding them a solution. It's out of my realm. Like I said I'm honest with my customers. I'm not going to promise them a solution I cannot provide.

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

2) Ask "the community" to come up with a solution?

That is a possibility. There are tons of requests such as this at www.joomlancers.com with tons of programmers responding to those requests. Keep in mind there are 'custom' programmers for Joomla too.

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

3) Give the customer up because it's outside of your range?

Yes unfortunately this is a possibility for me too since I don’t know how to provide the solution to everything. There's no one out there that can provide the answer to everything.

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

4) Find a programmer that can do decent custom work?

Please see www.joomlancers.com again.

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

Unless you give up the customer (3), you're lacking in control just as much by relying on "the open source community" as you are with one programmer. You're relying on a bunch of random strangers to provide a solution, now or eventually, for a problem they may or may not even care about. In other words, you still have to relinquish the control, and in your case relying on the theory that a greater number of people will supply an answer that much quicker.

I don’t necessarily rely on the opensource community exclusively but for me it has been the most helpful in providing component solutions for sites. It has also been the most helpful with finding fixes for problems. It’s not necessarily relying on 'strangers' but relying on other users of the components. Do you know how many component fixes the users themselves have found & fixed? I too have found fixes in some components and have posted them to the developers website. What better way to find fixes than from other users of the component/software. It's in the users' best interest to find fixes so their sites function properly. When I am trying to fix a component I don’t care if I make any money off it I just want it to work for the site I'm developing. The same is true for other 'volunteers'.

Sometimes it's not in the best interest of a custom programmer to find a fix since they've already been paid for the initial site development. It really depends if the custom developer has that customer on a support contract or not.

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

I don't really count "commercial interests and solutions" in this equation, and the reason has to do with fixes. Like frost (and I earlier) pointed out, security is a huge potential issue with open source. Let's say you spend $40 on one of these "commercial solutions" and it gets hacked (something that is inherently easier to do with open source because...well, the source is open!)

Who's going to fix that?

A volunteer? Not bloody likely...the script was sold. .

You’re not going to count commercial interests when it comes to open source? Do you ignore the fact Redhat has been responsible for much of the progress Linux has made? Do you really think Redhat was the sole solution provider to every problem their operating system had? No, the users of the opensource community contributed highly to fixes and patches. You must count commercial interests in opensource, it’s part of it’s core philosophy & success.

Just because source code is open doesn't mean it is more vulnerable than a closed solution. Look at electronic voting systems. These sources are closed to the public but are easily exploitable. Who’s responsible for the fixes and why haven’t they been fixed? I have always felt if electronic voting systems were open source they would be less vulnerable. I feel relying on the users is the best way to find problems and solutions to them.

In my opinion it is very likely for 'volunteers' to find solutions because these volunteers are users of the software. It’s in the best interest for these 'volunteers' to patch vulnerabilities because they need it to work.

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

Most volunteers aren't going to help someone with paid commercial interests

Not true, look at commercial software such as Kayako, modernbill and WHMCS. Their forums are full of users or 'volunteers' providing solutions to problems with the software.

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

Then they hired a developer that didn't suit their needs and need to look for another one. It happens with employees/suppliers in all businesses. And yet, "group logic" will somehow prevail and the collective wisdom of all of the developers is somehow intended to solve this. An idiot can be an individual or part of a group, and it's more likely that the group will contain an idiot that will drag it down.

Dave, look at DMOZ and Wikipedia as two example of how "open" solutions that used group logic have failed.

Are you then saying Linux, MySQL & PHP are all failures too? All were built using open source architecture.

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

And if your idea were profitable and fit your friend's business needs, then this should be a non-issue. Your friend may indirectly be trying to tell you something.

Their website already brings them more business and would be considered profitable already. I didn’t promise them more profits, just an easier way of updating their content which their current site is lacking. This easier way of updating content would bring them more profits since another goal of theirs is to post sponsor info and links to sponsor websites. Right now they have to contact the initial developer (who is no where to be found) to post any new sponsors to the website. They want to be able to do this themselves.

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

First of all, this is a silly question since HTML is the required minimum for web pages. So no CMS, custom or otherwise, will replace HTML.

I'm quite familiar with this. I wasn't born yesterday. I hand coded my first few websites 10 years ago in html. I wasn't saying CMS is going to replace HTML code. The HTML code will always be required. I am saying business owners are leaning towards having a CMS to managed a site rather than having to hand code it in HTML. The reason being it gives them more control to do things they couldn't do otherwise that would require advance programming skills. The typical business owner wouldn't be able to develop a community builder, member subscriptions, calendar, photo gallery… blah blah blah all from scratch... But they can do it using Joomla within a week… without the added cost of a custom programmer.

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

Second, you're not really making a point here again. You're just sort of rambling and you haven't tied it together at the end. Where are you going with this?

Not making a point? Are you even reading my post? My point is more and more businesses are requiring CMS's whether they are open source or custom built.

Also, I'm not rambling. I'm just trying to state my opinion here. Please don’t insult my intelligence.

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

What open source CMSes and their associated plugins provide is a low-risk, low-reward alternative to the person who doesn't want to do all that much with their site. But a successful business owner will think of ways to expand his/her site to the outer edges and beyond of that CMS, and that's where you need a custom programmer, like it or not. Most sites actually fall into that category, but there's a dearth of talent on the web design/development side that can make those customer needs happen. That's the deeper issue here.

It seems many of your statements are so finite. You can’t say CMS's provide a low-risk, low-reward and that they don’t do much. Perhaps that's the case in certain instances. I can show you plenty of examples of successful & profitable sites built using a CMS. Can you please provide examples of sites that outgrew a CMS and show what you have done that a CMS like Joomla cannot provide? A lot of your claims (especially the one's related to opensource) are all inclusive statements with no real proof.

As I explained before they're room in the market for both the CMS and custom developer. Just like there was and always will be room for Firefox and IE, Linux and Windows, etc... No one side is going to 'take over the universe' as you would put it. I agree opensource CMS is not always the best solution and I don’t always suggest it to every customer. I at least consider my options instead of dismissing opensource and CMS all together. I don’t dismiss custom programming all together either but I just feel the way technology has progressed, things get easier and easier to use which leads me to believe CMS is going to gain in popularity.

Originally Posted by davet

Come on, are you kidding me? I think we all have a basic understanding of what an 'old-school' or 'standard' site is and what the typical customer considers a standard site.

You're **** right I am, Dave. I agree that there are some commonalities between sites, but I don't agree there's a standard site, nor do I agree that there's a typical customer.

Drive down the street and find a "typical store" run by a "typical business owner." You can't do that, because different businesses have different needs and different things work for each business. To pigeonhole even a percentage of people into a "standard site" logic is asinine.

Originally Posted by davet

I highly disagree. Joomla can be used to build sites far more advanced than a simple 5 page site... with a calendar. Checkout http://www.joomlaawards.com/

A site that uses community builder, member subscriptions, calendar, photo gallery, videos, forum, store, download manager, ad manager, ratings and reviews, directories, newsletters, private messaging, podcasts, chat, RSS, SEO friends urls, forum, store, affiliate program & more I wouldn't consider a 'simple' site. All of which can be built using Joomla. You're trying to tell me Joomla is only good for building a simple 5 page site with a calendar or two when in reality it can be used to build a site that posses all of the above functionality.

You're being intentionally obtuse, Dave, and you know exactly what I'm trying to say: you're limited to that which the community provides vs. something that could be built outside of the constraints of the community. And when you need to have something done outside of the norm, your community won't be able to handle it.

Originally Posted by davet

Please keep in mind my target customer is not the same customers as yours but if I had customers come to me with the following I'd do my best to provide them a cost effective solution that works. Please keep in mind I do rely on the open source community, custom programmers & third party services if I do not know how to provide a particular solution.

Also your scenarios are very vague. It’s hard for me to tell you the exact solution I would use without any specific details.

I wouldn't give you that much information because it would take away my clients' competitive edge, but I'll give as much of it a shot as I can.

Originally Posted by davet

I'd first need to know what industry they are in and see if there is solution available for them already. I don’t always use Joomla, I sometimes use third party solutions. Like I said before there's no sense re-inventing the wheel as I can see a lot of custom programmers like to do. Almost every business segment has multiple customer management solutions available already. If it was a dentist I would use Dentrix. If it was a Private Investigator, I would have them use www.trackops.com. If it was a hosting company I would use www.whmcs.com. If it was a school I would use www.blackbaud.com. The list goes on-an-on. I can’t tell you a solution I would provide until I know what industry they are in.

Membership, conference, and other event management with industry-specific alphanumeric invoice number generation. In the words of the accountant, "it should replace Quickbooks".

Originally Posted by davet

I am working on a Joomla based site which does handle member management using the AEC component at http://extensions.joomla.org/compone...367/Itemid,35/

It really depends on the particular business and type of site they want developed. Your scenario is way to vague for me to give a concrete answer.

That's by design.

Originally Posted by davet

Download something? What’s this something? An Access database to query offline? If they just need to download an Access database via the web you could use DocMan at http://extensions.joomla.org/compone...,82/Itemid,35/

You can manage downloads via Docman and restrict the download to registered or users with special permissions.

I am not too familiar with Access but if they just need to download an Access database file offline this can be easily done using docman.

I'm always honest with the customers. If I can't do something I won’t BS and claim I can provide them with a solution. I would at least see what they are using the Access database for and see if there is another solution available with a more modern database solution. Access really? People still use Access?

Or they could just use their FTP client (something the client does a lot in this case because they run an FTP server as well), download what they want themselves and render the component useless. The "something" in this case happens to be an Access database. All you've done is introduced code into an environment where it's not necessary.

Your Access comment is pretty smartassed and silly, and clearly shows just how ignorant you are about your own topic. A decent programmer will realize that there are a lot of things that can be done via Access quite easily, if he/she avoids the trap of working with Access the way everyone else does. You can even build e-commerce sites with a backend that can generate hundreds of thousands of page views per month without the server even so much as blinking, IF you know what you're doing (and again, most people don't.)

I'd need more details on this to see what sort of solution is available. I'd see if this database could be brought online and use the Database Query component at http://extensions.joomla.org/compone...326/Itemid,35/

Couldn't be, for security reasons (i.e. sensitive customer data that should not be stored online) among other things. You have to pass select information from an offline database (for argument's sake, let's say Access again just because it's been brought up) to an online form.

Originally Posted by davet

If you're referring to form collection...you can just use one of the many advanced form components which can save the data to a MySQL database within Joomla. Here's an example http://extensions.joomla.org/compone...245/Itemid,35/. The client could then login to Joomla's admin interface using SSL to obtain the data.

Unfortunately, I can't reveal the specific form just because the site isn't ready to go live date (tentative launch January 7), but if/when you see it I'll let you know.

The problem I have with this as well is that I don't know whether it would work or not. I have to download it, try it, figure out if it works, find it probably doesn't, go back, try something else, find out if IT works, find it probably doesn't, and so on and so on...and I could code the solution ten times faster myself.

Originally Posted by davet

Industry specific? Depends on the industry. This is too vague for me to tell you what type of solution is available. If I found something that was based on Joomla I would use it if I found it was a well written component. If I found a third party solution not based on Joomla I'd consider using that instead. I wouldn’t develop it myself since I do not have the expertise nor support staff to support a custom software solution. I'd basically search the internet looking for the best solution for them. I'm a consultant not a programmer.

Can probably be done using an advanced form component for Joomla. If not I could find a Joomla programmer at www.joomlancers.com to build the component for me.

You're not a programmer! How the hell are you going to evaluate a well-written component vs. a complete piece of crap? The only criteria that you have to evaluate a component is if it fits what you're doing at the time, and that's just not enough.

Originally Posted by davet

If I don’t find a Joomla component that works I can usually find a non-Joomla software solution that does. If not it’s not worth my time finding them a solution. It's out of my realm. Like I said I'm honest with my customers. I'm not going to promise them a solution I cannot provide.

And you'll hit the wall pretty quickly.

Originally Posted by davet

That is a possibility. There are tons of requests such as this at www.joomlancers.com with tons of programmers responding to those requests. Keep in mind there are 'custom' programmers for Joomla too.

And then you're right back where we started this whole thing in the first place (relying on one person, as you put it, to take something beyond what it's ordinarily capable of).

Originally Posted by davet

Yes unfortunately this is a possibility for me too since I don’t know how to provide the solution to everything. There's no one out there that can provide the answer to everything.

Granted,

Originally Posted by davet

I don’t necessarily rely on the opensource community exclusively but for me it has been the most helpful in providing component solutions for sites. It has also been the most helpful with finding fixes for problems. It’s not necessarily relying on 'strangers' but relying on other users of the components. Do you know how many component fixes the users themselves have found & fixed? I too have found fixes in some components and have posted them to the developers website. What better way to find fixes than from other users of the component/software. It's in the users' best interest to find fixes so their sites function properly. When I am trying to fix a component I don’t care if I make any money off it I just want it to work for the site I'm developing. The same is true for other 'volunteers'.

You're still relying on other people to find the hole, fix the hole, and either tell you how to fix it or provide the patch. There's a point at which this isn't going to happen anymore.

Originally Posted by davet

You’re not going to count commercial interests when it comes to open source? Do you ignore the fact Redhat has been responsible for much of the progress Linux has made? Do you really think Redhat was the sole solution provider to every problem their operating system had? No, the users of the opensource community contributed highly to fixes and patches. You must count commercial interests in opensource, it’s part of it’s core philosophy & success.

I don't have to do anything as far as this is concerned. Commercial interests eventually become closed, if they're not already. They have to in order to retain a competitive edge. That's business.

I don't tell you everything I'm doing, and you don't tell me everything you're doing. It would be idiotic of either of us to do so.

Originally Posted by davet

Just because source code is open doesn't mean it is more vulnerable than a closed solution. Look at electronic voting systems. These sources are closed to the public but are easily exploitable. Who’s responsible for the fixes and why haven’t they been fixed? I have always felt if electronic voting systems were open source they would be less vulnerable. I feel relying on the users is the best way to find problems and solutions to them.

You're hitting the bong pipe way too hard if you think that's true. If voting systems were open source, everyone with a political agenda would be going left, right, and center at the systems trying to find a hole, a hack, an exploit, a whatever...and they wouldn't tell anyone if they found it.

Originally Posted by davet

Are you then saying Linux, MySQL & PHP are all failures too? All were built using open source architecture.

No...what I'm saying is that eventually they will reach a point, as all "open" projects do, where they can't grow anymore because mob mentality kicks in, everyone's self-interests start pulling the projects in different directions, finances and overhead become issues, and there isn't any more room to grow.

It happened with DMOZ. They opened up their directory for "anyone" to edit. Look at it now.
It happened with Wreckipedia. They opened up their site (and their source) for "anyone" to edit. Look what a mess it's becoming.
It even happens when people reveal a portion of what they're doing. Google PageRank/Alexa Toolbar rank are classic examples of that. They reveal a value, they reveal the source of the value, and idiots continue to try and exploit it (the latter in particular).

If you reveal something to the Internet community, it will be exploited and/or bastardized sooner or later. History continues to teach us this.

Originally Posted by davet

Their website already brings them more business and would be considered profitable already. I didn’t promise them more profits, just an easier way of updating their content which their current site is lacking. This easier way of updating content would bring them more profits since another goal of theirs is to post sponsor info and links to sponsor websites. Right now they have to contact the initial developer (who is no where to be found) to post any new sponsors to the website. They want to be able to do this themselves.

So here's the scenario:

1) Company wants to update sponsors on their website.
2) Company has to contact extremely hard-to-find developer, thus delaying the inclusion of any sponsor logos/links and thus creating decreased likelihood of repeat income from satisfied sponsors.
3) You come along and propose a solution where the client can update sponsors themselves, which should be a lot easier and thus more profitable than paying the hard-to-find developer to throw logos and links on.
4) Company tells you "no, we can't afford to do this."

The company in this case, after you laid out your side of the story and showed them how they could update these things themselves, still turned around and would rather deal with the developer. That should tell you something about your solutions right there.

Originally Posted by davet

I'm quite familiar with this. I wasn't born yesterday. I hand coded my first few websites 10 years ago in html. I wasn't saying CMS is going to replace HTML code. The HTML code will always be required. I am saying business owners are leaning towards having a CMS to managed a site rather than having to hand code it in HTML. The reason being it gives them more control to do things they couldn't do otherwise that would require advance programming skills. The typical business owner wouldn't be able to develop a community builder, member subscriptions, calendar, photo gallery… blah blah blah all from scratch... But they can do it using Joomla within a week… without the added cost of a custom programmer.

There's a fatal flaw in this logic, as there is with the open source logic in general: someone still has to implement it. You don't just snap your fingers and say "hey, look, here's component X". You have to fiddle and fart around with it, see if it will work, maybe do a little bit of hacking in some cases, etc. and so on. So you're still paying someone, whether you're paying in time or money.

I actually had a classic example of this occur just over a year ago. I was asked to build a registration form for a client of mine (something I had done numerous times in the past for the same client) for a site that was already built and updateable using an open source CMS (I forget the name of it, but I did look it up and found it was open source). It was a shockingly similar scenario to the one you described above; a site had sponsors that needed to be updated constantly.

Here's the kicker...I had to update every single page on the site every time a new sponsor came on board, and it took me about half an hour each time. If it had been done the way I would have done it, I could have done it in about 2 minutes...and it would have been the same two minutes I would have used to update it on the reg form, since I already had to do it there as well. The reg form had to sit on my server on a private IP since it didn't mesh with their CMS and since their server didn't allow sending of emails from any email addresses other than those on their server (which is great for a reg form.)

I had to go through this on approx. 25 separate occasions.

Originally Posted by davet

Not making a point? Are you even reading my post? My point is more and more businesses are requiring CMS's whether they are open source or custom built.

Also, I'm not rambling. I'm just trying to state my opinion here. Please don’t insult my intelligence.

No...you were rambling and not tying it together.

I'll agree that more and more businesses will require some form of a CMS for some things, but the open source community cannot and will not provide it. I've actually been providing it in some form or fashion to most of my clients for years now, and almost none of it has been open source (nor will it ever be). The lone exception has been WordPress, because I was asked to do it, but after a year of dealing with it and pushing it to its outer limits, my clients are starting to wonder aloud what the hype is about.

Originally Posted by davet

It seems many of your statements are so finite. You can’t say CMS's provide a low-risk, low-reward and that they don’t do much. Perhaps that's the case in certain instances. I can show you plenty of examples of successful & profitable sites built using a CMS. Can you please provide examples of sites that outgrew a CMS and show what you have done that a CMS like Joomla cannot provide? A lot of your claims (especially the one's related to opensource) are all inclusive statements with no real proof.

Yes, I could, but a number of the things I have built are intranet solutions and thus I can't show most of them. I build a lot of things for clients that never see the light of day to the public...and that's very much by design.

A number of things are also under (re)development and will be launched in the new year.

So, I'll show you a small portion of one of the more successful sites I've built, just because it has a calculator that appears to be simplistic on the surface...but I've never seen an open source CMS do this (keep in mind that I built this in February 2005):

http://www.hibiscusflorals.com/Produ...roduct_335.htm

It appears on the surface to be a very simple Javascript calculator, but it's the only one that exists that we (as in my client and I...and they know the competitors in the industry backwards and frontwards) know about for the industry it's in.

The reason I say it's a portion is because there is actually a much more complex quote system that stems from the backend of this. That's a taste.

Like I said, most of what I'm doing as of right now is going to be launched within the first 2-3 months of the new year, and quite a bit of it could not be accomplished via open source, nor would I allow for it to.

Originally Posted by davet

As I explained before they're room in the market for both the CMS and custom developer. Just like there was and always will be room for Firefox and IE, Linux and Windows, etc... No one side is going to 'take over the universe' as you would put it. I agree opensource CMS is not always the best solution and I don’t always suggest it to every customer. I at least consider my options instead of dismissing opensource and CMS all together. I don’t dismiss custom programming all together either but I just feel the way technology has progressed, things get easier and easier to use which leads me to believe CMS is going to gain in popularity.

I agree...to a point. It will hit a brick wall...and those of us with 3000 lines of custom code to draw from for any project will see the line a lot sooner than others will.

Again, follow the examples recent history has provided us online: open things grow to the point where the idiots stunt the growth.