Originally Posted by ForrestCroce

I don't see anything rude, but Chris and Adam's posts were a lot more helpful than you're willing to realize. The thing is, when you're wrong and somebody explains the truth, that's extremely helpful.

No matey... 'who cares' is not helpful, no matter which way I re-read the post its never going to seem like a helpful response. His replies to my initial post are helpful as they have an explanation... 'who cares' will never be helpful.

Originally Posted by ForrestCroce

The thing is, if you're selling something you know is useless to people who think it has value

Whatever happened to 'ones mans trash is another mans treasure'? Who are you to put a value on something for me or for anyone who sells links based on PR?

Perhaps you should let me know how much I should be selling my domains for aswell...? Ive got kjwhfkjsdhflswfksdhgkjhlkfhljshd.info - someone wants it for $1000 - should I tell him I dont want that much because I dont think its worth $1000 and just offer it for the reg-fee?

Or another example... a directory with no PR isnt getting alot of new submissions (as not many people care about a directory with no PR). They pay to get links to its site with the sole reason of getting PR. The site gets a half decent PR and then it gets a whole load of webmasters signing up as they want a site with PR (albeit a directory) linking to their page.
- I wouldnt say that the person who runs that directory has been ripped off when buying those PR links...

Anyway... I could go on with these examples all day but to my initial post, 'who cares' isnt helpful.

No matey... 'who cares' is not helpful, no matter which way I re-read the post its never going to seem like a helpful response. His replies to my initial post are helpful as they have an explanation... 'who cares' will never be helpful

Ok, so now do you get the "who cares" response.

Your quote of my post doesnt really highlight anything... if your initial reply had been the post you used as your reasoning behind the 'who cares' comment, then fair enough.

But 'who cares' was/is/always will be unhelpful. If I hadnt made my post about your poor reply then indeed I'd hazard a guess that you wouldnt have even taken the effort to give your reasoning behind the 'who cares' response.

To always understood the reply, I get that there are a load of people who dont share the same view point on PR... my highlighting it was due to it being a poor reply.

Originally Posted by dadaas

I agree with all google says, but there is no way this is true,lol
All sites are exchanging links with higher page ranks to improve.

Oh, really? What sites are the PR10 sites exchanging links with higher page ranks to improve?

Where are my link exchanges?
Where are Forrest's?
Where are Chris Hirst's?
Where are Learning Newbie's?
Where are vangogh's?

I could go on all day if I wanted to. Most sites aren't playing the silly link exchange game, either because they're not aware of it or because they figured out a long time ago why it's a silly idea (i.e. because exchanging links leads to a net 0 gain or a net loss in traffic and carries no real SEO benefit, contrary to published opinion.)

Originally Posted by dadaas

Avoid tricks?Hey i bet there is no webmastering forum without SEO topics, about SEO tools, this tricks are used by all webpages.

Again, wrong, wrong, w-r-o-n-g. Did I mention that this is wrong? Okay, let's do it again. It's wrong.

Why is it wrong? Because there's a difference between SEO and trick SEO. SEO is the process of optimizing a site for search engines. Trick SEO is the process of optimizing a site for the search engines, with some negative impact on the end user experience. This is where the silly tools such as SEO Elite, WebPosition Gold (which, if you read Google's guidelines, is mentioned as a tool that violate's Google's Terms of Service...just an FYI), auto-page-generator software, and all the other silly tools come into play.

I don't use tools to optimize sites anymore...there's no real need to once you figure out the basic SEO formula. I don't think at least others in this forum do either.

Originally Posted by dadaas

P.S. someone say when will come day when little webmasters with no knowledge rule the internet, well that day wont come i think,lol

I think you misunderstood the basic point. The idea is that the webmasters with little to no knowledge of the prevailing definition of SEO will rule the Internet. In other words, the webmasters who don't follow the link exchanging, PageRank chasing, tool using, spam-lord worshipping, lemming crowd will rule...why? Because they're the only ones doing anything different.

Originally Posted by boomers

Whatever happened to 'ones mans trash is another mans treasure'? Who are you to put a value on something for me or for anyone who sells links based on PR?

He's a hell of a lot smarter than 99.9% of webmasters and someone who deserves respect, that's who. If you're selling links based on PageRank, you're not selling them for the right reason (i.e. advertiser traffic benefit, not advertiser perceived SEO benefit). If you sell Bob a link for $20 and Bob doesn't get any user traffic, Bob just wasted the $20.

You may not like it, but Forrest was absolutely right.

Originally Posted by boomers

Perhaps you should let me know how much I should be selling my domains for aswell...? Ive got kjwhfkjsdhflswfksdhgkjhlkfhljshd.info - someone wants it for $1000 - should I tell him I dont want that much because I dont think its worth $1000 and just offer it for the reg-fee?

Given the inherently seedy and disgusting nature of "domaining", I'd say yeah, you should. This whole thing about domain names being squatted and being resold to companies who aren't smart enough to realize that they have a legal claim to those domains is completely pathetic, and it actually isn't allowed in many cases. If a company has a legal claim to a domain name and someone else registers it that doesn't have the same legal claim, that company can legally demand that domain name and the original owner of the domain name gets squat. If you don't believe that to be true, check out the recent case of potterybarn.org on this very board.

Originally Posted by boomers

Or another example... a directory with no PR isnt getting alot of new submissions (as not many people care about a directory with no PR). They pay to get links to its site with the sole reason of getting PR. The site gets a half decent PR and then it gets a whole load of webmasters signing up as they want a site with PR (albeit a directory) linking to their page.

- I wouldnt say that the person who runs that directory has been ripped off when buying those PR links...

So we have a scenario whereby the webmaster of the low-PageRank directory buys links to increase his/her PageRank, with no thought given whatsoever to the user traffic increase to his site and by extension the sites listed in the directory. People who are ignorant of the real meaning of Toolbar PageRank (which, as chrishirst quite rightly pointed out, is meaningless) submit their sites because they think they're going to get a PageRank increase, thereby perpetuating the myth that PageRank is somehow the magic bullet for SEO success and that user traffic from directories means absolutely nothing?

This is precisely the type of logic that gives SEO a negative reputation. Users are completely ignored, and/or put on the back burner, in favour of search engines. And it has to stop.

Hence...who cares?

But 'who cares' was/is/always will be unhelpful. If I hadnt made my post about your poor reply then indeed I'd hazard a guess that you wouldnt have even taken the effort to give your reasoning behind the 'who cares' response.

Obviously you don't get it. So, I'll explain it then.

Q. What did the "who cares" answer do???

A It illicited a response and makes the questioner consider "why did he say/post that", thereby generating a spark of interest in the answer that should be forthcoming. This; may then create a discussion where the OP (or anyone else) will or should, learn more about the reasons why.

How many threads are there where a question is posed, the answer given and the OP replies with "Ok, Thanks." (or something similar). Thread ends.

I don't about you, but I always get the impression that no one will have learned anything from that kind of non exchange.

So by making what appears to be a glib remark, it can then generate a discussion that may just last a little longer in the OPs or other readers mind than a meaningful, technically accurate, instant answer post. And seeing as this is post #25 of an entertaining thread about PR updates, where normally they are a bunch of meaningless one line posts from the usual supects;

It seems to have worked !!!! Cheers.

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

If you're selling links based on PageRank, you're not selling them for the right reason (i.e. advertiser traffic benefit, not advertiser perceived SEO benefit).

- When someone sells links they do it for 1 reason: Money.

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

Given the inherently seedy and disgusting nature of "domaining", I'd say yeah, you should. This whole thing about domain names being squatted and being resold to companies who aren't smart enough to realize that they have a legal claim to those domains is completely pathetic, and it actually isn't allowed in many cases. If a company has a legal claim to a domain name and someone else registers it that doesn't have the same legal claim, that company can legally demand that domain name and the original owner of the domain name gets squat. If you don't believe that to be true, check out the recent case of potterybarn.org on this very board.

Oh dear... thanks for that, and for more examples of domain ownership being disputed feel free to take a look at namepros - its a great place to learn about the domaining scene.

Originally Posted by chrishirst

So by making what appears to be a glib remark, it can then generate a discussion that may just last a little longer in the OPs or other readers mind than a meaningful, technically accurate, instant answer post. And seeing as this is post #25 of an entertaining thread about PR updates, where normally they are a bunch of meaningless one line posts from the usual supects;

It seems to have worked !!!! Cheers.

- Youre right matey I didnt get that when you posted 'who cares' you knew someone would comment on it thereby sparking a multipage thread and this amusing exchange. With that sort of foresight I'll vote you for prime minister

- When someone sells links they do it for 1 reason: Money.

That's not always the only reason. There are still people out there who try to arrange for a mutually beneficial exchange (i.e. publisher gets money, advertiser makes money or derives some other tangible benefit...and no, "SEO benefit" doesn't count...off the publisher's link).

Oh dear... thanks for that, and for more examples of domain ownership being disputed feel free to take a look at namepros - its a great place to learn about the domaining scene.

I'm very aware of the domaining scene. It's a shady "industry", and always has been.

Not about the original question of when the next PR update is... but as we've moved the subject so thoroughly I thought the following link would be of interest to anyone who's still reading the thread
http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/how-to-report-paid-links/

Originally Posted by boomers

Whatever happened to 'ones mans trash is another mans treasure'? Who are you to put a value on something for me or for anyone who sells links based on PR?

That's a fair question. And as big as my ego is, I'm a realist.

I'm in no position at all to put a value on sold links for purely PR reasons. The thing is, I didn't put a null value on the practice, Google did. You'll have to take that up with them; I'm just writing to share the knowledge I have, and another perspective.

The link you posted to Matt Cutt's blog, how to report paid links, someone - say one of your competitors - could report you for selling links. Google won't ban you, won't take you out of their index, but they'll stop any links on your site from carrying any PR value. If that were to happen, or if they can improve their algorithms to the point of catching most link sales, which I don't think is as hard as people make out, everyone who bought links from you is going to be upset. Unhappy customers are the last thing any business owner wants, and I think anyone involved in SEO would be especially concerned about dissatisfaction spreading across the 'net like wildfire.

And for the record, I've never paid for inclusion in any directory. And I consider reciprocal links a form of payment ... I haven't done that, either. Half of the PR 0 directories are going to fold up next month, and maybe even sell their database of email addresses. A quarter of them will do plenty of SEO and get more respect from the engines, and that worthless link you created three months ago can start to be useful. I only submit to directories when I'm too tired to do anything productive, usually after a long bike ride, but I just wanted to point out that while I've never looked at a directory's PR before adding my site, it probably works out that I haven't submitted to one above PR 4 or 5, and mostly to 0 or 1. Of course that's a wild guess.

Hmmm, only Google knows, we can't tell.

Originally Posted by dadaas

I agree with all google says, but there is no way this is true,lol
All sites are exchanging links with higher page ranks to improve.
Avoid tricks?Hey i bet there is no webmastering forum without SEO topics, about SEO tools, this tricks are used by all webpages.

P.S. someone say when will come day when little webmasters with no knowledge rule the internet, well that day wont come i think,lol

There's no way what can be true? That you agree with all that Google says?

Yeaah, i'm interesting too about the google PR update.
Well, I can tell this, few months ago I have finished a website and after maybe one or two weeks I had PR=4.
So... if that was couple of months ago, probably google PR update is close.

If we stop for a second, think about this... you will see that we are acting like we're waiting for a judgment day - people... sorry to say this, but we are freaks

@ Learning newbie:
I was replying to someone, go back and read to who i replied, he write some info...
------------------------
I cant believe that if i don't link to anyone i will get my site going, thats not even logical.
Why bother with link exchange then? I know google wants to be special and they are making things every night, but let get realistic, if they have crawler who will think on its own, i mean think, like human think and not by some variables, then all this what they say and what we hear in this topic will be true.

But to our sadness or happiness this will never happen, they crawler is smart, very smart but hey he will always check for links and back links and there is always some amount your site need to be decent and this are facts!!!

What variable will be needed for counting to how special people you link?
Is this something familiar to human brain?

I M afraid that google plans are just on paper and still PR is important whatever some people say, same goes for Alexa.

And this paid links is just strike to all other companies, is adsense, adbrite paid links? Who will tell what is paid link and what is advertising, im sure adsense is advertising.

Latest info from google sounds like downhill for company.

Remember lycos?they where most popular for few years, MSN, Yahoo, they all where number one sometime but now.... same can/will ahppen to google.

i got told that the higher the page rank the more oftern google comes t the site for exapmle if you have a pr of 7 google visits every day

I am not an seo or out before you say out chrishirst as your normaly do but a website design comapny told me this

Nope,
The usual issue of mixing up cause and effect.

googlebot visit schedules are simply changed by the same thing that creates PR
Links.

And of course when "googlers" (that's Google employees BTW) talk about PR, they are not talking about the toolbar variety.