SEO Tycoon

**chrishirst** · 07-21-2012, 02:03 PM

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Originally Posted by chrishirst

Best way to be! Nobody should rely on Search traffic. Because you never know if or when it will disappear.

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Originally Posted by C0ldf1re

Sadly, you cannot plan like that in real life.

Ah but you can, we have on company or our servers who pay absolutely no attention to Google search referrals AT ALL.

They have return traffic, PPC marketing traffic and direct referrals from the ALL natural links they have.

They do;
Absolutely no forum posting,
No "blog commenting",
No "social media" link "building", in fact no "link building" of any shape or form,
yet oddly enough they turn over in excess of £5000 a month (EVERY month) from a single website with:

No keyword URLs.
No keyword domain (it is their business name).
Absolutely no optimisation done on their website.
No social media 'widgets'.
A purpose built catalogue system with no "SEO Plugins", no URL rewriting, two, sometimes three query string parameters in the URL.

So please, don't tell me that a business cannot survive without traffic that is NOT directly under your control.

**C0ldf1re** · 07-21-2012, 02:52 PM

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Originally Posted by chrishirst

... So please, don't tell me that a business cannot survive without traffic that is NOT directly under your control.

I won't tell you that, Chris!

You are right in what you say. I gave an example of a firm who had, without planning it, become dependent on Google traffic. I wasn't extolling that as a desirable business model.

You have got me puzzled now. You have mentioned a firm that you clearly know well, and who aren't doing SEO. You are an SEO expert. They would probably benefit from SEO -- I can only guess "probably", because I don't know what they do. Yet you haven't persuaded them to benefit from your talents.

I am puzzled as to why. But I mustn't ask outright. That would be nosy!

**Jim Gillum** · 07-21-2012, 02:58 PM

There is a point where marketing and SEO merge...
In some cases marketing can surpass SEO....

A lot of people still equate SEO strictly with link building....

Old hat internet marketers do it all.....

)

**C0ldf1re** · 07-21-2012, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Gillum

... A lot of people still equate SEO strictly with link building...

At one time you could drive a totally blank website to the top of serps just by link-juice. I did it as a test. (Obviously on a keyphrase where there was very little competition.)

It doesn't work any more. Google has finally taken content into account.

**Jim Gillum** · 07-22-2012, 10:37 AM

Just think ...some day we can search on Google and actually get a site with the answer to our question...

Once we get past the paid results.......

**chrishirst** · 07-22-2012, 11:32 AM

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Originally Posted by C0ldf1re

I won't tell you that, Chris!

You are right in what you say. I gave an example of a firm who had, without planning it, become dependent on Google traffic. I wasn't extolling that as a desirable business model.

You have got me puzzled now. You have mentioned a firm that you clearly know well, and who aren't doing SEO. You are an SEO expert. They would probably benefit from SEO -- I can only guess "probably", because I don't know what they do. Yet you haven't persuaded them to benefit from your talents.

I am puzzled as to why. But I mustn't ask outright. That would be nosy!

You can ask away, oh and by the way i am not a SEO expert, I just happen to a bit about search and how it works.

The simple answer is that I do not sell any "SEO services" these days, so I offer them advice from time to time and they are very aware of how volatile "organic results" are or can be and they simply treat them as bonus traffic/conversions rather than chasing more and finding that somewhere in the "chasing process" Google decides to take their bonus away.

They look upon it with a very healthy "let sleeping dogs lie" and/or a "If it ain't broke' why do I need to fix it"? attitude.
Their advertising spend is around 10-12% of their gross profit which is adequate and a sustainable level for them.

**C0ldf1re** · 07-22-2012, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrishirst

... they are very aware of how volatile "organic results" are or can be...

Those of us with (perfectly white-hat) sites on serps know that. I hear tell that black-hatters know it even more so after Penguin!

**chrishirst** · 07-22-2012, 12:33 PM

Well it had to sink in eventually, and I suppose 18 -19 years makes a fairly gentle slope for learning how it really works.

**chrishirst** · 07-22-2012, 12:35 PM

But on the other hand. ...

It may have been the vertical drop on the other side that made them realise

**kline11** · 07-22-2012, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Gillum

Just think ...some day we can search on Google and actually get a site with the answer to our question...

Once we get past the paid results.......

Now that would be revolutionary! But I think some day the highest bidder will give the answers in the search results, regardless of accuracy.

**vangogh** · 07-24-2012, 02:29 PM

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Originally Posted by C0ldf1re

Nobody was suggesting that goheadtry doesn't give his customers real value once he has them

I wasn't suggesting it either. I have no idea what kind of value he gives people. However if you manipulate someone to get them to you in the first place you've already set up a relationship based on deceit and mistrust. That's generally not going to lead to someone becoming a customer.

However, I would suggest that anyone looking to take short cuts to gaining traffic isn't all that likely to put in the effort required to offer value to customers.

**C0ldf1re** · 07-24-2012, 02:40 PM

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Originally Posted by vangogh

... However if you manipulate someone to get them to you in the first place you've already set up a relationship based on deceit and mistrust. That's generally not going to lead to someone becoming a customer...

The point is that customers don't know how you came to the top of serps for them to find you. There is no deceit or distrust between you and your customers on that score.

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Originally Posted by vangogh

... However, I would suggest that anyone looking to take short cuts to gaining traffic isn't all that likely to put in the effort required to offer value to customers.

Respectfully disagree! That's like saying somebody who fiddles his taxes will also cheat his customers. That is just not so! I know tradesmen who would hang their heads in shame at the thought of doing bad work for a customer, but who couldn't care less about evading taxes or manipulating Google.

**vangogh** · 07-24-2012, 02:52 PM

I'll disagree right back. If you're willing to to do unethical things in one place you're willing to do them in another. That's not to say someone who would cheat on taxes would always cheat in other areas.

With a business and website if you're putting in the effort to build the best site you can and doing your best to provide value to your customers, you don't need to manipulate search engines to get traffic from. You can't just sit around and do nothing and expect traffic will simply find you, but you don't need to take manipulative steps either. Typically you take those manipulative steps because the site would have difficultly pulling traffic without them.

The black hat side of seo comes with greater risk. I'm not making a judgement on practicing black hat techniques, but those who do practice the techniques expect their sites will get burned at some point and they'll start over again with another site. It's the business model. You don't put in the best quality you can to something you expect will get burned.

I have no moral objection to anyone who wants to manipulate search engines. Search engines are not some kind of moral authority over the world. However please don't suggest if you are manipulating search engines for traffic that you're also putting in the highest quality to your site and business that you can. The two are completely different business models that don't complement each other.

**vultren** · 07-24-2012, 03:03 PM

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Originally Posted by vangogh

I have no moral objection to anyone who wants to manipulate search engines. Search engines are not some kind of moral authority over the world. However please don't suggest if you are manipulating search engines for traffic that you're also putting in the highest quality to your site and business that you can. The two are completely different business models that don't complement each other.

I completely agree with vangogh.

Remember, there is a difference between marketing and showing up on a SERP. Look how Kim Kardashian came to fame.... look how Godaddy became big... they had different marketing campaigns. Now, while they were different, it doesn't mean they used "black hat" or "white hat" optimization methods. That came with their business.

So, reading through all this, people seem to be confused over the difference between showing up on Google and their website's performance, and marketing!!

**C0ldf1re** · 07-24-2012, 03:17 PM

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Originally Posted by vangogh

... If you're willing to to do unethical things in one place you're willing to do them in another...

Try this as a concept: I have just told a spider that 2 plus 2 equals 5. Does that count as a lie?

Telling lies to your friends, or family, or customers would be unethical. Such acts would entail a degree of moral turpitude.

Telling lies to a spider is not unethical. Manipulating Google is not unethical. Telling lies to a tax inspector is not unethical. A perfectly decent and respectable person might do any and all of these things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vangogh

... With a business and website if you're putting in the effort to build the best site you can and doing your best to provide value to your customers, you don't need to manipulate search engines... don't suggest if you are manipulating search engines for traffic that you're also putting in the highest quality to your site and business that you can...

Why equate the effort and skill that you put into your real work with what you put into your website? I know professional floorlayers, landscapers, and heating engineers who take great pride in their skill in their own trade. But why expect them to demonstrate the same level of skill or pride in their websites? To them, websites may be just a marketing exercise to gain customers for their real work.

**vangogh** · 07-26-2012, 02:46 PM

Just curious, but do you take the time to read my posts? I've said a few times I don't there's anything unethical in manipulating search engines. I don't see where search engines are some arbiter of morals and ethics that we all have to follow. If you want to find holes in a search engine algorithm to help your web pages and site rank better, go ahead. I have no objection.

What I'm saying is the above is done for short term gain. Search engines eventually close those holes in their algorithm. People who practice black hat seo expect this. The business model behind black hat is to consistently push the envelope against what they can and can not get away with. Sometimes that will mean pushing too far and burning a site. Other times search engines will move the line and what wasn't too far now is and again the site is burned.

Black hats work with the expectation that the domain they are promoting stands a good chance of being dropped from a search engine and so they're prepared to start over with a different domain. The business model is about pushing the envelope and automating as much as possible because it's not worth putting in the time or effort to work on the quality of the site.

Once again I'm not making any kind of moral judgement about that business model. If that's how you'd like to run your business, go ahead. I'm also saying don't pretend the business model is about building a quality product. It isn't. Putting in the time to build quality works against the business model in this case.

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But why expect them to demonstrate the same level of skill or pride in their websites?

Because one reflects on the other. If I visit your shoddy website it sends a message that the work you do will also be shoddy. That's how marketing works. It's not just some random exercises you do. You have to do it well for it to work. Marketing is a central part of a successful business. If you can't be bothered to put in the effort to do it well or hire someone who will, why should anything think you'd be bothered with any other part of your business like the work itself.

**umairiqbal600** · 07-28-2012, 05:45 AM

Black hat seo we can say the seo techniques that are not following the Google rules and regulation and use any hidden text, link or any hyperlink, door gate in their site.

**C0ldf1re** · 07-28-2012, 08:58 PM

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Originally Posted by vangogh

Just curious, but do you take the time to read my posts?...

YES!

I read your whole posts -- and sometimes more than twice, too. Just because I only quote the parts that I want to vehemently dispute, doesn't for one moment imply that I don't agree with a lot of what you say, and learn a few things from you too!

Quote:

Originally Posted by vangogh

... What I'm saying is the above is done for short term gain... Black hats work with the expectation that the domain they are promoting stands a good chance of being dropped from a search engine and so they're prepared to start over with a different domain...

Well, yes... in many cases. We know of pure black-hatters who expect to turn over sites. They drive a site high by pure black-hat, profit from AdSense and eBay for a while, and, when the site is banned, they start over. They may be rotating dozens of sites at any one time.

But some of us want to test the envelope. We want to produce a good long-term website, but we know we cannot produce content worthy of page 1 on serps. So we experiment. Can we get to page 1 by techniques that Google frowns upon, and stay on page 1 forever? That is the challenge!

Quote:

Originally Posted by vangogh

... I'm also saying don't pretend the business model is about building a quality product. It isn't... Because one reflects on the other. If I visit your shoddy website it sends a message that the work you do will also be shoddy...

Sometimes impressions send false messages. Some of the best software engineers, who produce brilliant code, work in an environment of overflowing ashtrays and coffee cups that haven't been washed for months, and have last week's pizza crumbs in their beards (even the girls!)

In the examples I gave before, of hardwood flooring fitters, heating engineers, and landscapers, they want their websites on page 1 of serps. Although their website contents are basic (not "shoddy" as in lack of care) and do not merit page 1, they still want page 1. Although their customers like them, genuine backlinks are very few, and do not merit page 1 of serps. So they must resort to black-hat to get to page 1 of serps.

**vangogh** · 07-30-2012, 02:52 PM

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I read your whole posts

I only asked, because a couple of times you seemed to be implying that I was suggesting manipulating search engines is unethical. I thought I made it clear a few times I don't think that.

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But some of us want to test the envelope.

That's fine and again I've never argued against that. All I ever said was these methods are meant for short term gains as opposed to long term gains. John's initial question in this thread was to ask if there was a downside to something he did. I think yes. The downside is any gains are likely to be short lived.

There are other things he could do where the benefits would be long lasting. They might take a little more time before those benefits are realized, but once they are they'll last. All I'm saying is I think this is a better approach if you're looking to build a long term business.

**C0ldf1re** · 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vangogh

... a couple of times you seemed to be implying that I was suggesting manipulating search engines is unethical... All I ever said was these methods are meant for short term gains as opposed to long term gains. John's initial question in this thread was to ask if there was a downside to something he did. I think yes. The downside is any gains are likely to be short lived...

Professor Karl Olivecrona theorized how, "Don't do that because the dictatorship will punish you", would gradually transmute in the public mind into, "Don't do that because it is illegal", and then into, "Don't do that because it is wrong."

Google seems to have pulled off the same trick with many people. "Don't use black-hat because Google will de-rank your website", has changed into, "Don't use black-hat because it is unethical." Of course, you didn't exactly say that, and I'm sorry if I read more into your words that you meant. But I certainly did read your whole posts!

The Church teaches, "Do not sin, because God is omniscient, and He will eventually punish you." Google have managed to emulate this as, "Do not black-hat, because Google analyzes all, and will eventually cast down your website."

But, even if that were so, would "eventually" matter? We might intend our businesses to survive indefinitely, but the internet changes so fast that any particular website might be obsolete in a few years anyway; in fact, in a few years, Google as we know it might be a thing of the past!

(Incidentally, just because Karl Olivecrona wrote some perceptive things, don't assume that I am an uncritical fan of his. He was a Swedish pro-Nazi who wanted Germany to win the war.)