Say I want to come up #1 for "the best darn web site ever" - would it hurt that goal to make titles and links that said "the best darn web site ever created with Wordpress"?

I think I already know the answer, but it can't hurt to run this past the people who know what they're talking about. Plus, now we have something better than stupid PageRank to talk about.

Does putting extra text hurt or diminish the power of the main keywords? And I know that in my example, it could be a good thing if I came up for Wordpress without planning to. There's always surprises. But still if you have an important keywords does it "hurt" to go sticking a bunch of other junk inside important tags like title, h1, and a?

C'mon can't we please talk PageRank some more?

I don't think there's an automatic yes no answer to your question. Yes keywords can be diluted. so your first title would likely be better, but your second title would help the page rank for phrases that the first one didn't. So you might end up with more traffic for the second phrase.

With the links it's a good idea to mix anchor text to some extent. Imagine you could see every link pointing to a page and every one of them used the exact same anchor text. Would you think someone's trying to manipulate something? I would. I think a search engine would too.

Keep in mind that all these on-page factors are among the many factors involved. You might use your first title and I might use the second title, but because I have more and better links than you pointing to the page I rank better.

I would stick the keyword or at least a variation in the title and h1 and maybe some other elements.

You always have to think of the people reading the actual page even for seo since it's people that add links to your content. If adding a phrase one more time makes the page harder to read don't do it. If it still sounds natural then sure at it to a point.

I would definitely use your keyphrase in your page title, ideally close to the beginning of the title as you can. I would also keep the title short though I would optimize for a couple of phrases. I would probably use your second page title to help rank for WordPress related queries.

I'd write my h1 the same or nearly the same as the page title. A slight variation is probably better. Then in my h2s and h3s I would use phrases based on the keyword theme for the page, but not the same as the page title and the h1.

I would link to external and internal pages related to mine and if i could get in a keyword or two fine. If not I wouldn't worry about it.

I might place it in other pages on the page too, but I would always be varying the phrases I used.

the best darn web site ever
the best web site ever
the best darn web site in the world
the coolest web site in the world

all of them are making use of the word website which might be your most generic keyword for the page and the best darn website being the most generic phrase.

I wouldn't use the exact phrase too many times and I might reverse the word order here and there.

"Here's a really cool web site. The best darn page on the site is..."

Don't over think any of this. The best way to write a web page is to write it for real people. Keep your keywords in mind as you write and if you can add one of two in on editing go ahead as long as it still reads naturally.

But yes place the phrase in the title and the page headings with slight variations.

Originally Posted by vangogh

I might place it in other pages on the page too, but I would always be varying the phrases I used.

the best darn web site ever
the best web site ever
the best darn web site in the world
the coolest web site in the world

I've heard this same advice recently from a very wise man. I'm not sure if your question is an example, probably, or a real phrase you're targeting, but if so, I'd go for the second one to pick up WordPress queries.

I'd also avoid spending too much time micro-managing the details unless you've got a specific reason you need to do well with a particular phrase. My logs are starting to confirm more of this same wisdom, showing that a popular site tends to also do well against long-tail phrases that you'll never think of.

Originally Posted by vangogh

C'mon can't we please talk PageRank some more?

Don't over think any of this. The best way to write a web page is to write it for real people. Keep your keywords in mind as you write and if you can add one of two in on editing go ahead as long as it still reads naturally.

Oh, honestly, I'm not trying to overanalyze things, just tired of the same old discussions over and over again about how do I: increase my PR, get indexed, submit to Google, do they punish you for spelling roong, and how many links does it take to get to the center of a PR 7?

My site isn't the best site in the world, it's not even the best Wordpress site. In fact, out of the people taking part in this thread, I've probably got the worst WP site in the bunch, and it's not because mine is bad, it's that there are a lot of quality ones. I'm mainly just trying to spark a new and more interesting discussion, while also learning something useful that can stay in the back of my head while I decide what to title future posts, and thinks like that.

I agree with both of you about changing up the text so you don't trigger a spam flag, but I'm more wondering if "best site" gives more weight to those two keywords than "best Wordpress site" would to just th words "best site." Sort of is it better to write a full sentence or a bumper sticker.

And that's just an example I thought people would find funny. The actual titles for upcoming posts on the Great Library are going to be more along the lines of politics, history, Adam ( well, the Biblical one ) and the Christian notion that God created a separate an unequal people before him, something on Barry Bonds now that things have cooled down.

"best site" would be better than "best wordpress site" if you're targeting "best site' for a single occurrence of anchor text or plain text or in your title.

Keyword density is in there somewhere, again as one factor among many. so 2/2 is greater than 2/3 for the specific words.

Also with the second phrase 'best wordpress site' you aren't actually using the phrase 'best site' You're using the words best and site, but not the phrase 'best site' That doesn't mean you can't rank for the phrase, but you'd probably have a better chance using the phrase.

You might then write 'best site for Wordpress' so that you use the exact phrase you want and still get in the keyword WordPress if you wanted to go after Wordpress related phrases on the page as well.

sometimes but it's not advisable because if you dilute them you lessen the possibility to rank well.

Just another thought...

"best site" - best site for what? "best site to buy kitty litter"? or maybe "best site for webmaster tools"? or "best wordpress site"?

I think too often we get so caught up in being number one for a word or phrase we forget to consider what people are looking for who would potentially visit our sites.

I think the second phrase with Wordpress in it has much better long tail appeal, and will be hit better early on... then perhaps dump it for the other. I use this technique alot...long tails are great for fast results..then tweak them later to represent the real prize.

Later
Melanie

Originally Posted by itscribe

"best site" - best site for what? "best site to buy kitty litter"? or maybe "best site for webmaster tools"? or "best wordpress site"?

I think too often we get so caught up in being number one for a word or phrase we forget to consider what people are looking for who would potentially visit our sites.

Well, again, my site isn't the best, whether you want kitty litter or Wordpress at its best. That was just a goofy example.

Instead of "best site" I'm planning to write a post soon about the massive number of recalls coming from China, Mattell aka Fisher Price's second in two weeks with the promise that more will be announced soon, and so on. For that post, the question might be "Yet More Product Recalls from China" versus "Lead Paint, Anti-Freeze, and Magnets - Oh My!"

Another one coming on Barry Bonds and baseball's history and legacy. Another one on global warming. Another on Biblical creationism.

I think people who do searches for this stuff will be happy with what they find, and the question of what title and so in becomes more complicated for every post. So I figured a really simple (and funny) example would suffice. If I can learn the answer to the original question, and I think I have thanks to Steve, then I can use this knowledge to find the answers to more difficult and involved questions, without having to bother everyone here every time I make a post.

One thing about writing titles, particularly for posts is that you probably want to write them more for people than search engines. An optimized title might not be the one that gets people to click and read. And if they don't click and read they don't link.

If you get people to read your post and then link to it you'll probably get more seo benefit than writing the perfectly optimized title.

I think you can get close to both. That's partly why I recommended the second title from your first post in this thread. You'd still have your phrase in the title, but you could add a few words around it to make it more enticing to people. The seo benefit you lose by not having the perfectly optimized title could easily be overcome with a few links.