I see this advice a lot. It's basically like "get more links" has evolved. Out of the frying pan, into the fire.

Here's the rub: any site you can just "get links" from isn't an authority. Think about it for a second, not every site on the internet deserves to be linked to. We all know our own site is the best thing since before sliced bread even, but what about your thousand clones, your competition? Can those people get links at whatever site you're looking at? Part of what it means to be an authority site ( even if we don't know the full definition - I don't anyway ) is that all of your links only go out to the most deserving, high quality places around. If a site has links for any other reason ( exchange, selling them, whatever ) it's not an authority.

Someone will say "But Wikipedia proves that's not true." IBM did a study, and found that the average "vandalism" on WP is "live" for less than five minutes. ( I lost the URL, you can find it on WP. ) They have dozens of anti-vandalism bots. They have a page of the most recent changes, and the bots go around looking for new links and flagging them. Editors review all the links posted, because they have such a spam problem, and really frown on any external links. So, just about any web site can get an IBL from some random Wikipedia article, but chances are, it won't be there tomorrow. Not unless it's related to the article and brings a fresh perspective. And even with all of this, most people don't seem to consider WP an authority in the same way they consider BBC as one.

I'm reading the threads after being away for the weekend, and had to say that.

Can I get an Amen and a Hallelujah for the good word? OH MAH BRUTHA!

John I know I've mentioned authority sites a number of times so I'll add some of what I usually mean.

Let's pretend for the sake of this discussion that my site is considered an authority on seo. We'll say I've been writing for years and have hundreds of thousands of good links pointing at me and everyone knows who I am and trusts my opinion, etc.

If I have that site I can probably pass a lot of link juice by linking to you and you probably want to get a link from my site to yours. You're right that you can't just add the link yourself. So how do you get it.

Well you need me to add it so what you're trying to do is get my attention in some way. Not just any kind of attention, but attention that will leave me feeling good about you and wanting to link to you.

You can post interesting comments on my blog. That'll probably get me to look at your site. It might take more than one or two comments, but if you consistently post good comments I'll notice. You could read my blog and continue some of the discussion on your site along with a link back to my original post. I do check my logs and if I notice your post sending referral traffic to me I'll have a look.

If you've written the post in a way that makes me further want to discuss it you have a better chance of getting a link. If you can send more traffic to me through the link on your site you'll have a better chance of me mentioning you as well.

Naturally none of that is easy. You have to get to know me and what might get might attention in a good way.

Another way that might be easier is to look for sites that allow you to submit articles. I'm not talking about directories, but a site that will look at any article you submit and only publish the best.

For example 'A List Apart' publishes articles on css. I think anyone can submit, but most articles will never be accepted. But if you write a good enough article and it is accepted and you have a link or two back to your site whether in the article or in an author bio you just got yourself a good link.

It's a lot harder to get the kind of links I'm talking about, but any one of them is going to be worth more than 100s of forum sig links.

You also don't need to target the best of the best sites. I admit my own site isn't going to be the highest authority site in the land, but it might have more authority than your site currently does. I'd be willing to bet an in context link from my site is better than a sig link.

So you can target sites and site owners that may not carry all the authority in the world, but carry more authority than an automatic submission directory.

A lot of it will come down to being creative, finding good sites where you can submit something that gives you back a decent link, and getting the attention of someone so they want to link to you.

Originally Posted by vangogh

Well you need me to add it so what you're trying to do is get my attention in some way. Not just any kind of attention, but attention that will leave me feeling good about you and wanting to link to you.

Ah, and the next paragraph has some great ideas in it. I hadn't even though of them. But you're exactly right, in that blogs tend to carry conversations between them, over time. A lot of blog entries seem to begin with "Our friends at xxx" ( with xxx being a link ), then a summary, then finally analysis. And commenting regularly, in an intelligent way, is probably a great way to get yourself into this conversation.

Originally Posted by vangogh

Naturally none of that is easy.

Dang it, I knew there would be a problem with this approach!

This is what it boils down to. It isn't easy. Nothing worth doing ever is, somebody smarter than me once said. I guess this is what I'm ranting about. Some of the other forums here, people buy a database of articles, or a template and some copy writing, and launch a site. All of what should be important, aren't really necessary. You can launch a web site without being or having a designer, writer, artist, or even content at all. Not that a great design should be enough, but for sites that don't actually produce anything, they don't even need this to try and drum up some ad revenue.

Originally Posted by vangogh

For example 'A List Apart' publishes articles on css. I think anyone can submit, but most articles will never be accepted. But if you write a good enough article and it is accepted and you have a link or two back to your site whether in the article or in an author bio you just got yourself a good link.

Another fantastic bit of advice, and I meant to come back and write something like this in a reply, until my boss asked me to do actual work. Read between the lines, and it's hard, but not impossible. I didn't know this about A List Apart, but they're a perfect example. You can go about influencing your chances of getting a link ( in pretty much the same was as organic - by writing some good content! ) but the ultimate power is in someone else's hands. And they don't wield this power against you as punishment, rather, they use it to reward truly outstanding advice. ( Like what some of the regulars here are known for. ) Not being published doesn't mean "you suck," it's just that they only have so much room, and people compete for it.

How Google defines authority in their algorithms is anybody's guess, but I think this is one factor. A List Apart sounds open to feedback and new ideas from the community, but they aren't like a girl in high school with a bad reputation.

Originally Posted by vangogh

A lot of it will come down to being creative, finding good sites where you can submit something that gives you back a decent link, and getting the attention of someone so they want to link to you.

And I would say these are the same skills it takes to create a good web site. Maybe it takes a little more creativity to think outside the walls of your own site, but in general, good content is smiled upon on the internet. In fact, that's what Stumble is all about - there's so much great content out there getting lost like a needle in a haystack, that there should be a way for people to find great stuff more easily.

I owe the two of you in particular thanks. I feel a lot less wet behind the ears. It seems like a good SEO isn't just someone who says "use h1 and title tags." You could almost get the impression a really good SEO's job is more to be a rational person who can stand back, size up a situation for what it is, and have good, logical advice. Or maybe to not loose track of the goal, not get so mired in the details ( more links! never enough, we need more! ) that they loose track of what's important.

if you're less wet behind the ears because of things Adam and I said it's more because you came here with the right attitude. So many new to seo only want to have the answer that will give them quick results. It's why some often stay confused for long periods of time.

When search engines first hit the scene it was easy to find a quick path to the top. The algorithms weren't as sophisticated and there was a lot less competition. In the mid 90's it wouldn't have been inconceivable to build a site and be one of only a dozen sites in your market. And if you added some extra keywords to your page you showed up #1.

But since then seo has been moving more and more towards tradition offline marketing. It's not quite the same since there are more technical things to know and the internet is changing marketing itself, but seo is less about chasing after algorithms and more about marketing what is hopefully a good product.

Offline you hand out business cards to network. Online you post to forums and pass around links and avatars. The principle is still the same though.

We all know we need backlinks. Even if we didn't someone here is right around the corner to tell us. But if all you're out there doing is trying to get the same links your competition has you'll always be behind them as they get more.

The trick is to get links that will be hard for your competition to replicate. That's part of why building a good site with good content helps. It's harder for your competition to duplicate. It's harder for you to create, but that's the point since it's harder for them too.

You have to look at your skills and take advantage of them to create something unique. If you're a good writer start blog and get articles published. If you're a good programmer then build a widget. If you're a good business person hire other people to write and program.

And PLEASE, all you link collectors READ THIS bit especially several times,

We all know we need backlinks. Even if we didn't someone here is right around the corner to tell us. But if all you're out there doing is trying to get the same links your competition has you'll always be behind them as they get more.

The trick is to get links that will be hard for your competition to replicate. That's part of why building a good site with good content helps. It's harder for your competition to duplicate. It's harder for you to create, but that's the point since it's harder for them too.

and UNDERSTAND it

ya, create a useful site, and good content.
links come in later.

Chris those words are sounding very familiar to me.