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I'm a SEO Virgin
Old 03-12-2008, 08:41 AM I'm a SEO Virgin
Vizcom's Avatar
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Name: Daniel Robinson
Location: Bolton
Hi Guys

You know the type a Graphic designer who has taught himself SEO, well that's me.

I've had some successes but I've joined this forum to hopefully learn more.

Could people have a look at what I do and tell me if there are things I'm doing incorrectly or are ther any things I should be doing?

Any feedback is appreciated:

If brand new website go to keyword search first then choose domain based upon this

Website technical review
Suggest new page structure, new pages which reflect chosen search terms

Ask website owner to provide a list of keywords and phrases they would like to be found for/top selling products etc.
Areas they want enquiries from.
Are the products available nationally?
Do you have areas where you sell a lot to or where you would like to sell to?

Do you have any other domain names pointing at this website? If yes, 301 redirects

Word tracker report/Use Google suggest tool also and choose phrases which have 1 to 2 million results.

Choose three similar phrases for each page.

Choose 10 pages one being the home page to optimise which reflect the phrases above

Alter the footer address part to reflect the areas they want to target include England, UK in address.

Add the three phrases for each page at the bottom in the footer. These change each page.

Choose HTML page title for each page make so 68 characters long

Meta description tag per page 20 words maximum (using keywords not more than twice) in proper English.

Keywords for each page no more than 25

Add alt tags to each image and set image attributes if not done

Alter Heading 1s to reflect search terms - each phrase once check if buttons could reflect phrase or key word

Alter content or add to content on pages to reflect three chosen phrases. Make sure there is a minimum of 250 words of content per page. 5 times including the footer

Add text rich links where possible.

Produce site map

Produce XML site map and submit to Google, Yahoo, MSN and Ask.

Add Robots txt file

Submission
Check Google, Yahoo, MSN and Ask
If no listings for the above submit URL
Submit to 50 Free internet directories with A Google Page ranking of 4 or more on list.
Ask site owner for a list of possible link partners.

Set up sample report which shows phrases, dates and positions. No of back links. Page Ranking. Add recommendations column at the end of each phrase. Send reports to client quarterly

Report should show page ranking, results for each page listed, number of back links

Monitor web stats to see which terms are effective where users are entering the site and where they are leaving the site.
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Old 03-12-2008, 12:02 PM Re: I'm a SEO Virgin
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Well, at least you're closer than most people. I'll give you that much. And the reasons you're off aren't entirely your fault (they're prevailing "wisdom" and I use that term loosely).

1) A very minor factor at best, and one that can turn around and bite the customer in the *** just as easily. Select a domain name that fits the company name (since you seem to be based in England, companyname.co.uk is fine). Personally I don't believe this has had any impact for a long time due to domain squatters, scrapers and other spammers.

2) Site structure is important; you want to keep the navigation as "flat" as possible (no more than 2-3 clickthroughs if you can avoid it) to your major pages. Each of the pages in turn becomes a keyword page, and if the copy is written properly (descriptive header and title tag, quality content, etc.) then it will be fine.

You're right about wanting to focus on key products/services for the customer as well. Put the products/services up that are "best sellers" and focus on those.

Make sure your copy is written for humans first. Search engines, particularly Google, actually appreciate it more (again, this flies in the face of conventional wisdom).

3) 301 redirects are correct. Make sure you not only redirect the main page, but all the appropriate subpages to their corresponding subpages as well.

4) "Sort of". A lot of the times, phrases have lots of results and very few potential customers. The word "mesothelioma" comes to mind...a while back, this was a big phrase for spammers and lawyers because the clients that contracted it could cash in bigtime (and die, but that's not important to spammers and lawyers). Now there are approximately 12,600,000 results in big G for the word, and about 6500 reported cases of the disease. Does that seem a bit off to you?

If you're going to use WordTracker or similar services, the key is to take it with a grain of salt. A lot of keywords/phrases are targeted for the wrong reasons, and often there are pretty good niche phrases that are buried within that take some digging. The KEI (Keyword Effectiveness Indicator) is a pretty good rough gauge of niche phrases, but again...take it with a grain of salt, because a number of the searches are done by SEOs themselves, thus skewing the stats.

These services aren't as useful as they once were, and often quality niche phrases escape them.

5) I find 1-2 works best myself...and I don't beat myself to death trying to get them in there, either.

6) 1-2 different phrases for each page. Remember, each page is a potential entry point, not just your home page. The better you build your site, the less dependent you become on your home page as an entry point, and that's a GOOD thing.

7) Cheap SEO trick. If you write your copy well enough, you won't have to do silly things like this. Does this help your users? If it doesn't, and it usually doesn't, don't do it.

8) http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...n&q=gas+strike

It's pretty apparent that the title tags within the SERPs aren't 68 characters long (one of the results should be mine, by the way). Some of them are short, some of them are long, and some don't even contain the phrase. Again, this is where "writing for humans" comes into play.

9) That's actually a pretty reasonable limit. Again, though, you may want to expand that somewhat if you can write a meta description that will appeal to users when they see your result in the SERPs. That's trial and error, though.

10) If you mean meta keywords, don't obsess over this one. They're not used, for all practical intents and purposes, by major search engines (except possibly to detect spam). Tier 2 engines do make use of them once in a while, but you won't get much if any traffic from them.

11) They're alt attributes, not tags. Don't let Chris Hirst see that. Make sure they accurately describe the image to the sight-challenged as well. Don't just stuff them full of keywords and phrases.

12) This is one of those "trial and error" things that depends on the site. Some sites work better with short content pages and some work better with long content pages. It just depends, and there really isn't a universal answer.

The 5 times in the footer thing sounds like the same thing as keywords in the footer. See above.

13) Don't just put in "text rich links" for the sake of them. Put them in where they fit and provide a navigational flow. I'm not sure if that's what you meant by "wherever possible", but it should be. Think about how and where you want to guide the user. What do you want them to do? Do you want them to call? Buy? Email? All of the above? Think of it from that standpoint.

14) If you produce an XML site map, a regular one isn't all that necessary. Most actual users won't even touch the thing.

15) I never bother with this. It's only necessary if your site has errors or issues involving indexing that a sitemap can help isolate. If you build it properly, you don't actually need to do this and it really doesn't accomplish much.

I believe it will at some point, when search engines are forced to adopt "opt-in" logic as opposed to the present "opt-out" logic, but it hasn't happened yet.

16) Good call. Don't be afraid to use meta robots tags as well (you may have to for dynamic content, among other reasons).

17) Link partners and link exchanges are just a silly SEO pet trick that, for some reason, most people think works. They're just a waste of time. Would you rather send traffic to someone in exchange for traffic or would you rather get organic traffic without having to do anything for it?

Search engine submission isn't necessary either. All you need is an inbound link to your site on another site's page that is crawled frequently (e.g. a web design discussion board) and you're fine.

The PageRank thing...toolbar PageRank is useless, and it's not something that should ever be focused on. If you think the directory will send you traffic and you don't have to give it a reciprocal link (one of the signs of a quality directory), then go ahead and submit to it. If you have to give a link back, or the directory seems to be full of crap and spam and stuff you wouldn't recommend to your worst enemy, don't bother. Most directories fail miserably when put to that test.

The kind of directory you want to submit to is WebSavvy. The owner there is one of the biggest spamfighters around, and you can't even THINK about getting into her directory unless your site's clean as a bean. Build your site to her standards, and you'll generally get at least close to a top-notch SEO site as well.

20) cancels out 18 and 19. If a site owner wants to see how well (s)he is doing, a good site stats package will reveal search engine phrases and where traffic is coming from.

The backlinks don't necessarily factor in, either. Often a quality link to your site will have no backlinks at all that can be tracked, and in some cases may be an internal link (e.g. IBM's blog network).
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Old 03-12-2008, 12:06 PM Re: I'm a SEO Virgin
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Well done Adam, I'm surprised you didn't make a blog post out of this ;-)
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Old 03-12-2008, 12:30 PM Re: I'm a SEO Virgin
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Name: Daniel Robinson
Location: Bolton
Adam

Wow!

I wasn't expecting such a detailed and informed reply, thanks for the advice. Would you mind if I go through ia and reply to the parts I'm not sure about?
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Old 03-12-2008, 01:04 PM Re: I'm a SEO Virgin
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Go ahead, dude. If you're not sure, ask. It's the only way to learn.

Paul...I thought about it, except that since I was fed most of the content and all I had to do was answer it, I didn't think it would be fair to the OP.
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Old 03-12-2008, 01:15 PM Re: I'm a SEO Virgin
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Name: Daniel Robinson
Location: Bolton
Adam.

Cheers for that. I will have a good read through it and get back to you tomorrow. My brain is now a bit mashed!

thanks
Dan
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Old 03-14-2008, 12:09 PM Re: I'm a SEO Virgin
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Posts: 66
Name: Daniel Robinson
Location: Bolton
Hi Adam.

I've had a good read through your reply and I understand most of it I think!

Why is it in your opinion not a good idea to choose a desired search term for a URL?

When writing copy for a site you suggest that you don't need to mention the phrase 3 times and that if the copy is written well enough in proper English it will be more effective than trying to 'pander' to the search engines?

I read somewhere that the title should be 68 characters long so it displays properly in Google. You reckon that the length of the title isn't that important just what's in it?

Regards submission I submit my sites to 50 internet directories that have a Google Page Rank of 4 or above. All of these directories don't ask for a link in return. Is this a waste of time? I was under the impression that Google page rank had an effect on your listings, is this not the case.

When I mentioned back links I thought these where the links which Google had indentified and indexed as pointing to your site. Am I wrong again?

Sorry for all the questions, just find this fascinating

thanks
Dan
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Old 03-14-2008, 12:27 PM Re: I'm a SEO Virgin
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It's not a good idea not to choose a desired search term for a URL because the company name usually doesn't match it...which makes it look a bit tacky. it also generally doesn't have any real impact in terms of rankings.

Consider sites such as Amazon, Wreckipedia, eBay, news sites...they quite often show up highly on various searches, depending on the datacenter, and don't bother to use those types of domain names.

When writing copy, you can quite often get away with mentioning the phrase once or twice without pandering. Three times, IMHO, tends to be the grey area...if it fits, you can use it. I've seen cases where the phrase is mentioned 7-10 times, and cases where the phrase isn't mentioned at all. If you write for users, the rest tends to take care of itself.

I think the length of the title is subject to interpretation...whatever fits for the page, that's what you should use.

As far as directory submission goes, submitting based on PageRank is based on Toolbar PageRank, which as I explained above is a useless measure for anything since it's infrequently updated, an approximation, and may or may not be messed with. Submit to a directory if you think it will send you some real user traffic and you've got nothing to lose by doing so; if either isn't the case, don't bother.

PageRank has some bearing (as in internal PageRank), but there are over 100 other factors that go into the secret sauce. The problem is the PageRank is the one that gets blown way out of proportion and misunderstood; quantity of links is given preference over quality of links. The best traffic links often pass no PageRank at all.

Basically, as long as you focus on your site and your users the way you would as if search engines didn't exist, you'll be fine for the most part. A lot of the elements of good design are the elements of good SEO (only they're never mentioned.)
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Old 03-14-2008, 12:33 PM Re: I'm a SEO Virgin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizcom View Post

Why is it in your opinion not a good idea to choose a desired search term for a URL?
Domain Names have very little weight, if any at all, for SE purposes. The structure however, (folder & page names) does have a little value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizcom View Post
When writing copy for a site you suggest that you don't need to mention the phrase 3 times and that if the copy is written well enough in proper English it will be more effective than trying to 'pander' to the search engines?
Absolutely, concentrate on the REAL visitors and the SEs will love you as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizcom View Post
I read somewhere that the title should be 68 characters long so it displays properly in Google. You reckon that the length of the title isn't that important just what's in it?
Yep, It's not the size that matters but how you use it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizcom View Post
Regards submission I submit my sites to 50 internet directories that have a Google Page Rank of 4 or above. All of these directories don't ask for a link in return. Is this a waste of time? I was under the impression that Google page rank had an effect on your listings, is this not the case.
Toolbar PR is simply NOT worth chasing. Get backlinks that will bring REAL visitors who will be interested in what you sell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizcom View Post
When I mentioned back links I thought these where the links which Google had indentified and indexed as pointing to your site. Am I wrong again?
Nope, that's what backlinks are ( See Above )
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Old 03-14-2008, 01:07 PM Re: I'm a SEO Virgin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizcom View Post
When writing copy for a site you suggest that you don't need to mention the phrase 3 times and that if the copy is written well enough in proper English it will be more effective than trying to 'pander' to the search engines?
I'll take a stab at this one. Why do you write your copy in the first place? In general, your copy should be written to inform your visitors or to get them to perform a specific action. The best way to accomplish either of those tasks is to write in clear, precise, and persuasive English.

It's a backwards mentality to write copy for search engines before writing for your visitors. You can't teach a search engine or establish a relationship of trust with it. Neither can a search engine buy your goods and services or participate in your website.

Having a lot of visitors come to your website is great, but your copy (even more than the design, in my opinion) is what is going to keep them there. If your writing is clunky, redundant, or poorly edited; you diminish your value and you'll notice that your bounce rate will go up and your conversion rate will go down. At that point, you may have a high SERP rank, but it won't benefit you in the slightest.

Let's look at the SEO benefits of having well-written, human-centered copy as well. People like to share content that they find useful and if your content fits that bill, it's more likely that it will get linked to and blogged about. Search engines may also factor in the bounce rate in determining SERP position, so if yours is lower, it will benefit you more in the long run.

Beyond SEO, if you're trying to elicit an action by your visitor, it's also more likely that you'll succeed if you focus your attention on your visitor rather than the search engine. If you own an online business, your ultimate metric should be successful conversions, not Page Rank, SERP position, page views, etc. It's better to make more money from a few visitors than to have a lot of visitors and make less money.

It is possible to write for both the visitor and the search engine, but the visitor should always come first. If you re-edit a piece for a search engine, always filter it through your visitors' eyes. If it could potentially lose a customer, get rid of it.
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Old 03-14-2008, 01:48 PM Re: I'm a SEO Virgin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizcom View Post
Sorry for all the questions, just find this fascinating
Don't be sorry - most of us are here because we think it's pretty interesting too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizcom View Post
Why is it in your opinion not a good idea to choose a desired search term for a URL?
I'm not Adam but I can answer this one. What happens next month when you decide a different search term is a better one to target? You can't change your domain name without undoing all the work you've done so far. Plus if you use your company name, if you're successful, as you grow more people will become aware of you and do more general searches against your company name. Think of the Microsoft and Yahoo merger, and all the people probably doing searches for things like "What non search products does Yahoo own". Or "Microsoft database" and either products or code or whatever else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizcom View Post
When writing copy for a site you suggest that you don't need to mention the phrase 3 times and that if the copy is written well enough in proper English it will be more effective than trying to 'pander' to the search engines?
I'm a techie so I hope you don't mind a tech example. If you had a page about databases, you'd probably use a lot of other terms to refer to it. Things like DB, SQL, backing store, engine, transactional system, RDBMS, and more. This is important for a lot of reasons
  1. If you used the word database in every sentence people reading the page will get bored and leave without finishing, or just skim things over and miss important things you want them to pick up on.
  2. If I'm looking for information about databases, I might not use that in a search term. Maybe I'd ask "What SQL engine is fastest" or something else. If you switch it up and use SQL in your copy you'll at least come up in that search - if you don't, you don't even have a fighting chance.
  3. If it's true search engines look at topics and relevance and all that, they probably use more than just a single keyword match to figure out what topic a page is about.
  4. A bigger vocabulary impresses your customers more. In case that doesn't sound right, would you trust a mechanic who knows cars have engines, but doesn't know what any of the things in an engine are called?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizcom View Post
Regards submission I submit my sites to 50 internet directories that have a Google Page Rank of 4 or above. All of these directories don't ask for a link in return. Is this a waste of time? I was under the impression that Google page rank had an effect on your listings, is this not the case.
How much time? I think you might get a marginal SEO benefit from that. Whether a small gain is worht your time or not is a question for you. Page Rank has a small effect on your SERPs, but only a very small one. More to the point is that different links have different PR value - some won't help whatsoever with that.
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