Originally Posted by chrishirst

@johneva.

Read the first post in This Thread, take note of the thread starters forum handle and the anchor text of the first two signature links THEN ask why we very often have a low opinion of so-called "SEOs"!

I know exactly why you have such a low opinion of anybody who has anything to do with SEO, thing is not everybody is the same and to assume that everybody is, just aint fair.

As I have already mentioned before, I carnt stand all the website designers who make sites from templates who dont have a clue what they are doing, difference is I dont slag off everybody who does website design just cos of all the idiots who sell the naffest sites I have ever seen, cos all they do is use a template made in 1990 and change the pictures for each site they sell.

I totally agree that there are alot of increadbly unexperianced people jumping into SEO without any idea on how to design/develop websites which is a huge problem, as to be able to do SEO/SEM work properly you need to know about how to make a well designed website aswell and know what changes to a sites desgin could make improvements.

I understand that but to slag off the whole trade and make out like anybody who has anything to do with it are stupid is a little unfair dont you think?

I have worked hard to learn what I know, I dont even do the job properly for any SEO company I just do the odd bit of work for a few sites as I know the people who own the site.

I first started learning about websites do to an ijury I recived and I was unable to do anything but lye in bed, so I thought I would like to learn about computers and get a new trade as I was a car mechanic before the injury. I first learn just the basics about computer hardware, OS and MS Office, after that I wanted to learn HTML and web design, one I got the basics I wanted to learn CSS and XHTML, then moved on to SEO methods so I could premote the sites I made.

It was at this point where a mate of mine asked me to do some work for him on a website, knowing I had learnt about SEO and I was also being quite successful with it to. I then decided to try and learn abit of PHP to help me progress further as most deasent sites use PHP (I still need to learn this properly never had time to get past the basics).

So I find it rather annoying to be tarnished with the same brush as those who come along with no experiance at all and think that its ok to open an SEO company and charge a fortune for simpley building naf links which have little to no value and do very little else cos they dont know what they are doing.

I totally understand why people have a low opinion of most SEO people but am tired of being classed as one of these people just cos I do a bit of SEO/SEM. Not all people who do it are the same, which is the same with any trade.

Pretty much anything that can make money on the internt you have alot of low quality companys who dont have a clue what they are doing and are opened by people who know nothing about the trade but see an opertunity to make money. But not everybody is the same and to slag of a whole trade and anybody who has anything to do with it is just a little off IMO.

Again, John...no one's painting you with that brush. The only reason that you would have to be offended by any comments made here is if you fit the profile created by those comments. The more you complain about this, the more you're painting yourself with that brush (especially when you misspell fairly common words like "decent").

There are people out there who have a full-time hand in the SEO game who say the exact same thing that Alan, Chris, myself and others have been saying for years. The idiots and scam artists make up the majority right now. This is the way that it is.

I just realized this, but you seem to be sucked in yourself just based on the last line in your signature:

Always looking for good link exchanges.

This is the prevailing wisdom that helps to make the industry the crap factory that it is. There's no such thing as a good link exchange. There are partnerships, but they go far beyond "put my link on your site and I'll put your link on mine" (just ask Vince McMahon and Donald Trump about that).

Here's a classic example of what we're talking about:

http://www.lease-hire.co.uk/link2

There are at least two links on here that clearly belong to competitors. Why in the world would you want to send people away from your site, assuming the link page is there for legitimate reasons (it's not, in case anyone's wondering)? The whole argument of "showing you're the best by providing customers information on competitors" is BS, too, since customers who want the information will go and find it themselves and won't need your help.

If you want people to believe you, you're going to have to change, John. You're not the angel you're making yourself out to be.

Pretty much anything that can make money on the internt you have alot of low quality companys who dont have a clue what they are doing and are opened by people who know nothing about the trade but see an opertunity to make money. But not everybody is the same and to slag of a whole trade and anybody who has anything to do with it is just a little off IMO.

...and you're fast becoming one of them.

Oh no lets get the spelling police out.

Saying I am looking for good link exchanges makes me somebody who thinks SEO is only about link exchaging?

If you honestly think that link exchanging was not important at all with SEO then you are sorely mistaken, yes it is only one way of getting links and is now a poor way at that but it was not always and if you honestly think getting links is not an important part of premoting a site your sorely mistaken. I am not daft enough to think its the only thing thats important and do work with many different methods for improvoing sites serps, but yet you are making out like anybody builds links at all dont know what they are doing yet thats just not true.

Mmmm good theory, as for the links pages they are not even part of the site anymore so your comenting on something which is not even part of the webiste. I tell you what especially for you I will delete the 2 links pages files which are not linked to by the site anyway, if that makes you happy. But I dont see why I should be scared of linking to a competitor if I know my product and price is better and opur site looks more professional, if anything its the other site who should think twice about sending there visitors to our site.

What you forget to mention is the position we are in for main search terms we aimed for with that site like:

Contract Hire
Contract Hire UK
Contract Hire Vehicles
car contract hire
bmw contract hire
mercedes contract hire
Lease Hire
Lease vehicles
lease hire cars
Lease Hire UK
Fleet services
Vehicle lease
Vehicle Leasing
Personal Contract Hire

With great positions on many many more these are just a selection of a few and still working on improving many many more with current changes to the site being developed now to help with it. If I am so bad at what I do how is it that I have managed to get these positions in search terms where other companys are also having pro company so SEO work on their sites?

Remember I am no pro I do abit of this work for fun and to learn, now to triple what was already a very sucessulf websites traffic since I started doing work on this companys website, I would say that not to bad for a guy who has learnt about it just for the fun of it, no?

* sighs * Do whatever you want, John. At this point, you've established that you're completely full of crap anyway.

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

* sighs * Do whatever you want, John. At this point, you've established that you're completely full of crap anyway.

Good answer just say I am full of crap and throw even more abuse at me, mmmm like I said what has this thread done but cause arguments and throw abuse at people?

As I said before it is simpley flamming, the people in this thread knew it would cause and argument and offence and yet still carried on with it.

I know exactly why you have such a low opinion of anybody who has anything to do with SEO, thing is not everybody is the same and to assume that everybody is, just aint fair.

I'm not sure where you have this idea that I have the same low opinion of everybody in SEO, because it simply isn't true.
There are many people in SEO whom I have respect for, but you won't find them joining forums as "seoexpert", "seoguru", seogeniusInsertNameOftown" and then asking very basic questions, whilst touting their "expertise" and offering their PAID services in freelance forums.

These are the people who get the entire industry a bad name and then anyone who is in the SEO/SEM marketplace get tarred with the same brush, as being charlatans, con artists, scammer, liars and more, by disgruntled ex-clients of these hapless and dangerous people.
The incompetents in this industry are far worse for the reputation of the entire industry than all the so-called "blackhats" or "spammers". Simply because they fail spectacularly to get any decent results for their clients. That is what harms everyone who is involved in the business.
Forget being mad at the "blackhats", save your vitriol for the "clueless SEO's" of this world.

As Adam says the industry is "full of crap", and it will remain so until clients learn that Cheap != Good and self proclaimed experts usually aren't.
"caveat emptor" definitely applies to SEO.

If you are getting good results and a positive ROI for your clients spend, then good for you, and long may it continue. I got fed up with having to explain how not everybody in the SEO world is a scammer/idiot to potential clients and stopped chasing for work. These days, if somebody approaches me and I think they might make a good client, I'll consider it.
Life's too short to be wound up by clients who know they can manage a bit of design work and change a few tags here and there, and chip in with the "I've got a copy of FrontPage at home. It can't be that difficult" comments.

I have worked hard to learn what I know, I dont even do the job properly for any SEO company I just do the odd bit of work for a few sites as I know the people who own the site.

And this is exactly the best way to go about, learn the skills needed BEFORE touting your wares as a fully fledged expert.

Quite honestly, your first two posts;

Sorry to break the bad news to you but if you have to ask and your saying you dont know anything about it they your not really in a position to open a SEO company now are you?

Its exactly why SEO has such a bad name for its self to many people open SEO companys when they know nothing about SEO work.

and

Thats no grounds to open a company though is it, if you had told me you had already made some off your own site and got them to rank high in many competative search terms, then I would say all the best mate give it ago but your asking how to get a site to rank well because you want to open a SEO company cos you know the buzz words.

It's kinda like saying I am going to drive in F1 cos I know the rules.

If you dont know what your doing and have to ask how to do it then you can safely say your not ready to make your own company doing the work, as I already said thats exactly why SEO has such a bad name to many people jump in making their own company taking on clients when they dont have a clue what they are doing.

Learn the trade then think about making your own company not the other way around.

came across as if you felt the same way about the industry and the "experts" in it as we do.

Originally Posted by johneva

Good answer just say I am full of crap and throw even more abuse at me, mmmm like I said what has this thread done but cause arguments and throw abuse at people?

Actually, this thread has done more...it has established your reputation as an overly sensitive person who reacts badly to tough advice, causing sharp counter-reactions from those who give it.

If it's true you are just learning to do some SEO and tripled the traffic on a web site that's great! We're happy for you! However, if you want to truly benefit from this forum, and learn a lot more about how to get much greater long-term traffic, you'll listen to guys like Adam, VanGogh and others who've been doing this a lot longer than you or I (and I started about 7 years ago). Yeah Adam's patience wears a bit thin because we hear the same crap day after day and try to get this poison out of the forum as quickly as possible, but it's to your benefit he is pushing you to think differently whether you realize it or not.

Nobody here is calling you stupid. Their just letting you know you've been somewhat brainwashed by the 90%+ bad SEO sources so prevalent today on the web.

i am laying foundations to my web marketing company these days...found a very interesting heading and started reading top to bottom
as i have done proper seo at my previous work place i know how it is..and i can remember how i started picking this new SEO stuff, its quite interesting topic to learn

if you know "how to speak to the client" you are almost there...<please don't promote yourself>

So apparently not having any SEO skill is secondary to knowing how to wipe your clients' asses clean while attaching a siphoning hose to their wallets...is that it? Because that's what you just said.

thats what i have experienced
so called SEO's who can pitch better to the client have a leading edge than people who can actually do the job
in past at work i had a external seo consultant dumped on me to give advice (he was pretty good). but i know some of the things he says is not exactly the best way of doing things. but people tend to think he is a lot better simply because he got a good pitch. i think some people refer to this as
"Screwball Consultant Meltdown (SCM)
The SCM (pronounced “scum”) is an affliction of the highest order that affects many in-house SEO folks who are either duped by consultants with a great sales pitch or have consultants forced upon them by IEDM’s. "

after sometime i learned how to talk to the clients as well (still a junior) , because from my experience most people give preference to SEO's who can speak better than for people who can actually do a good job

Hey, I will sponsor you to come to China...You will make a killing the first year-- all the people who are clueless do...You can charge 2,000 USD per keyword that you get placed in the ad listings 'cause the Chinese don't get organic vs paid: Cool, huh?
Then you better have a ticket back to your country 'cause they are, despite rumors to the contrary, cracking down on corruption...And anything ripped off over 10,000 is a capital crime...So THEY make a killing...

And what ARE the buzzwords? Let's Google Bomb some new ones and create our own buzz...

Originally Posted by lonniebhodge

Hey, I will sponsor you to come to China...You will make a killing the first year-- all the people who are clueless do...You can charge 2,000 USD per keyword that you get placed in the ad listings 'cause the Chinese don't get organic vs paid: Cool, huh?
Then you better have a ticket back to your country 'cause they are, despite rumors to the contrary, cracking down on corruption...And anything ripped off over 10,000 is a capital crime...So THEY make a killing...

And what ARE the buzzwords? Let's Google Bomb some new ones and create our own buzz...

I would do just about anything to make a buck, but risking death is probably a little bit too much.

There's no risk of death. That implies that death is a possibility. You mess around in China...you will end up with a spinal column chiropractic adjustment courtesy of a mid-sized tank.

My next company will be a "special promotion and marketing" (SPAM) company that sends out emails to advertise things. I hear there's a risk of death for that, too. At least if I set up shop in Russia.

Just please take this advice as help, not as abuse. We wouldnt take the time to write all this if we weren't trying to help.