Ever curious what beliefs the people here at WT hold? I am. The first we tried this thread, it sort of fell apart, but the validity of the questions remains. I hope some of you will choose to participate.

These questions aren't ones a computer spits out at you and does a few number crunches to tell you what you might be. These are questions that all philosophies (theist AND non-theist) ask. Answer them for yourself, do with them what you will, share your answers if you like.

1. Ontological (Greek ontos, to be) Who am I? What is basic human nature?

2. Epistemological (Greek episteme, to know) What are the valid sources of knowledge? What makes something "real"?

3. Cosmological (Greek kosmos, order) Who or what is the source of ultimate order in the universe?

4. Soteriological (Greek soterion, deliverance) What is my purpose in life?

5. Eschatological (Greek eschata, first or farthest) What does it mean for me to die?

And, of course, the mother of all questions: Do your answers to these motivate you to set rules for your daily life, and if so, what are they?

Our answers to these should be statements, and not construed as recommendations. Philosophers and religious figures alike have been murdered for pressing people to ask these questions. Honesty to some is a dangerous thing.

tim

Those 5 questions Tim you presented are the toughest ones for anyone to answer. That's why people belong to a religious organization, they are trying to find their existence and the reason for their existence. People are looking for love, hope, comfort, peace, guidance (both in life and spiritual), therefore they belong to a religious organization which provide philosophies, doctrines, teachings to help guide their followers with guidelines and rules so the they can lead a fruitful and productive life. This applies to other organizations that may not be considered religious.

Serious questions there.

1. Ontological (Greek ontos, to be) Who am I? What is basic human nature?

For me, basic human nature is empathy and reason. These two things are what seperates us from the other animals. As for the rest of what people call human nature, is just societal conditioning.

2. Epistemological (Greek episteme, to know) What are the valid sources of knowledge? What makes something "real"?

I think science is really the only valid source of knowledge. As part of that, mathematics is really the only truth we know of. Essentially I'm an empiricist I guess, if it can be experienced, it's real.

3. Cosmological (Greek kosmos, order) Who or what is the source of ultimate order in the universe?

Mathematics governs everything in the universe and is the ultimate order of everything.

4. Soteriological (Greek soterion, deliverance) What is my purpose in life?

Hmmm. A real toughie. I've never really felt like I have a purpose. Except perhaps enjoy life, and procreate!

5. Eschatological (Greek eschata, first or farthest) What does it mean for me to die?

The toughest of all questions. I don't really think about this much to be honest, and I really don't know. Perhaps we just disappear into the vast ball of energy that is the universe?

Oh Youuuu Whoooooo Tim, you never answered the 5 questions yourself!

I already answered some of these questions in another thread here at the Politics and Religion Forum myself.

I did in the predecessor to this thread:

http://www.webmaster-talk.com/514210-post7.html

There are other good answers there, too. I just didn't link to the original because the original discussion had somewhat fallen apart.

tim

Oh My! A very intellectual read! You are like my husband who has studied the different religions and philosophies and has come to pretty much the same conclusions as you have. He also follows the Jesus Seminars where all the Theologians from the different religions meet, I think the last big one was held in Seattle and the Dalai Lama also attended.

We both use our 6th sense, so we both bounce between the scientific and mystical world, although with the mystical world there is no physical proof as of yet, and there again we both have had experiences in the mystical beyond the scientific world.

It's a shame the original thread fell apart, because it's an intellectual thread discussing philosophy and the workings of the inner mind.

What most people consider to be "the sixth sense" is in actuality a seventh. It's funny that basic biology texts tell of what's called a "body" sense (ie, knowing what position your body is in, at rest and in motion) but don't count it with the other five. You can even have hallucinations with that sense, such as the phantom limb syndrome with amputees, where you can even experience pain in the lost limb. Dr. Schwartz, whom I referenced, studied this phenomenon when formulating his hypotheses regarding neuroplasticity.

If you haven't read this book, I highly recommend it (the link will take you to a review of the book):
The Mind and the Brain: Neuroplasticity and the Power of Mental Force, by: Jeffrey M. Schwartz, M.D. and Sharon Begley

There are few texts regarding medicine that can shape philosophy; this is most assuredly among the few.

tim

Ok, we shall get technical, not the 6th sense instead Extrasensory Perception (esp). My understanding besides the 5 senses there are five more senses.

I did read the review of the book, interesting. Reprogramming the mind without drugs. I see he works with OCD (obsessive compulsive disorders). I do believe a mind/brain can be reprogrammed, but in some cases no.

Wow, five more? What are they?

The interesting thing with Dr. Schwartz is that his research has everything to do with the Will outside of the wiring, if you will. That's a big step in his field.

So, yeah, I'm getting a bit technical, but call it one of my own obsessions. I've been of the opinion that most things that we call metaphysical have physical explanations, whether we're aware of them or not. Take auras, for example. What do you get when you wrap wire around a nail and connect both ends to a battery? An electromagnet, right? Anything that conducts electricity exhibits magnetism, and that includes the human nervous system. I'd say that not only is the "aura" the human magnetic field, but altering that by putting pins at certain nodes of it is the reason acupuncture works. Humans just happened upon the practice as something that works by trial and error, and are just now realizing why it works. I think that the will is something more than that, and research is just beginning to confirm that, but it's something we'll have a better understanding of generations later.

tim

I cheated, I was curious about the senses, myself, and the extra five make sense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senses

pain, balance, joint motion and acceleration, temperature differences, direction

Mental Health and Human Behavior is so far behind the curve, so far behind the medical, that information came out of a book I read several years ago written by a Psychiatrist, which I already knew already. Just so happens Mental Health and Behavioral Science interests me.

How can predicting the future in detail have physical explanations? How can a person be hypnotized and do a transference of another person, and actually be that three year old child in voice, and know what that child was seeing, feeling, thinking and talking like a three year old child? Not everything can be explained through physical explanations.

To quote Master Yoda: "Hard to say. Always in motion is the future." I do believe in and have experienced not only ghosts but poltergeists (nothing like what's in the movies....), yet I will still take with a grain of salt those who claim to speak with them. Regressions by hypnosis are possible, but it's also possible to create false "memories" through suggestion, including changes in voice. I'm sure channeling, too, is possible, but again, I take it with a grain of salt to a Bavarian salt mine. To be sure, none of the above would have a physical explanation; what I was saying is that such things will ultimately be explained, but we have to embrace that there are ways of knowing beyond what can be quantified.

Yes, mental health and psychiatry are way behind the other medical sciences, and I'd say that the main reason for that is that the psychiatrists themselves hold their own field back (many, in my experience, are a bit on the freaky-deeky side ).

To the list of senses for humans I'd add the magnetic sense. I know I can detect changes in magnetic fields that are strong enough, and I've tried it with other senses masked. And I do think that all humans have a sixth, or seventh, or eleventh (!!!) extrasensory sense. I just think that it's an ordinary thing, and that what's wrong is that we don't have a proper understanding of the nature of time, will or spirit that tend to be what people associate with stirrings of that sense.

tim

I don't remember Master Yoda saying anything like that! Master Yoda is all wise!

Are you saying you aren't open minded enough and you take it to the salt mines?

No it wasn't a power of suggestion, channeling, or regression, this was a little bit different Hypnosis session. Son had a transference a few years back through the dream state, the only thing is the information terrified him because he let his emotions interfere, which is easy to do.

Many many experiences with the spiritual world, all positive though and some through dream state. One thing I did learn which happened a few years back, they can return physical articles.

There's a couple of things that come to mind about physical explanations, which where Dr. Schwartz and other Doctors like him are doing research. I agree some of these Psychiatrists are out there and need therapy themselves. Multiple personalities, has now been explained. The only thing with multiple personalities that hasn't been explained is, the person needs glasses to see but the other personalities don't. As far as I know, that hasn't been explained yet. Spontaneous Human Combustion, that has been explained somewhat, I feel the researchers are still working on that one.

What do you mean about magnetic senses? Is that where you sense like an oncoming earthquake, etc? If so, I personally would like that one to go away.

As far as esp, yes everyone has it, there are multiple reasons why people can't or don't use it. Perhaps your statement "we don't have a proper understanding of the nature of time" is an excellent choice of words.

Originally Posted by Giselle

I don't remember Master Yoda saying anything like that! Master Yoda is all wise!

The original concept of the Force draws from a lot of different sources; though it's frequently dismissed as a pop culture reference, a closer look actually reveals a mature discipline once you part with the fanboy garbage.

Originally Posted by Giselle

Are you saying you aren't open minded enough and you take it to the salt mines?

To borrow another phrase from here in the South, "Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out." Things metaphysical do require more belief, but knowing that there are as many crackpots as there are those who are genuine I demand where possible verifications drawn from traditional science, such as:
1) The phenomenon can be repeated, and has been witnessed by multiple trusted sources.
2) Other explanations have been exhausted, some manner of control has been used.
Even so, I do believe in God, have seen ghosts, have seen in others and have experienced extrasensory phenomena, none of which can be proven in the traditional sense. But in my entire system of belief I have the BS meters at full sensitivity. It's just not real to me if that's not the case. If you can't call your entire system of belief into question periodically it just isn't genuine, IMHO.

Originally Posted by Giselle

No it wasn't a power of suggestion, channeling, or regression, this was a little bit different Hypnosis session. Son had a transference a few years back through the dream state, the only thing is the information terrified him because he let his emotions interfere, which is easy to do.

Oh, to be sure, and not just for the young. Two of my favorite movies are "Jacob's Ladder" and "What Dreams May Come." In the former, the moment the main character realized that the demons haunting him were angels trying to take him home, he was released from his torment. The latter is just a well-written movie altogether, but what's most striking is that concepts of heaven and hell aren't rewards or punishments, but projections of a person's core essence.

Originally Posted by Giselle

Many many experiences with the spiritual world, all positive though and some through dream state. One thing I did learn which happened a few years back, they can return physical articles.

I can't say I've experienced returning of articles; I've just seen one move things, both slowly and violently.

Originally Posted by Giselle

What do you mean about magnetic senses? Is that where you sense like an oncoming earthquake, etc? If so, I personally would like that one to go away.

We don't have too many earthquakes out here, so not much chance to see if I could sense those or not. I can sense when a stoplight is about to change, if an appliance is on even if I'm not in the house, know the phone's about to ring, that sort of thing. If I wear a watch that uses a battery I have to have some sort of fabric between my skin and the watch or I'll drain the battery within a day.

Originally Posted by Giselle

As far as esp, yes everyone has it, there are multiple reasons why people can't or don't use it. Perhaps your statement "we don't have a proper understanding of the nature of time" is an excellent choice of words.

I've been thinking about a story that involves a defense project where people are taught to interface directly with computers, borne of control of artificial limbs but branched out to control of aircraft, etc. But to do so the subjects and computers have to teach one another a common language, and the virtual constructs borne of that teaching process begin to manifest in real life. The discipline of controlling their minds and emotions gives them the ability to project out of the virtual world they're creating and into other realities. I'm still toying with how to turn it into a page-turner, though.

tim

QUOTE=serandfae;882639]The original concept of the Force draws from a lot of different sources.

Joseph Campbell for one.

To borrow another phrase from here in the South, "Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out." Things metaphysical do require more belief, but knowing that there are as many crackpots as there are those who are genuine I demand where possible verifications drawn from traditional science, such as:
1) The phenomenon can be repeated, and has been witnessed by multiple trusted sources.
2) Other explanations have been exhausted, some manner of control has been used.
Even so, I do believe in God, have seen ghosts, have seen in others and have experienced extrasensory phenomena, none of which can be proven in the traditional sense. But in my entire system of belief I have the BS meters at full sensitivity. It's just not real to me if that's not the case. If you can't call your entire system of belief into question periodically it just isn't genuine, IMHO.

My brains have completely fallen out because of open-mindedness?? That's who I am though, and that is how I have extended my knowledge. As far as Metaphysical, I rarely use the term, it brings to mind the hoopla that went on back a few years ago and I mean that in a negative way with the hoopla.

I can't say I've experienced returning of articles; I've just seen one move things, both slowly and violently.

Returning of the article was a bit of a surprise for me. We have had lights turn on and off and things move. I have had loved ones who have died come through dream state, to let me know they are all right. I know they are all right, but miss them terribly, after awakening I feel so much better. Perhaps that one last time to see and talk with them is the soothing part for me through dream state, although one person came back twice. My Father sent a message to my husband through dream state for me, Father popups once in awhile in reality world, not with visualization, but with a very strong feeling of presence.

I can sense when a stoplight is about to change, if an appliance is on even if I'm not in the house, know the phone's about to ring, that sort of thing. If I wear a watch that uses a battery I have to have some sort of fabric between my skin and the watch or I'll drain the battery within a day.

Yes, although no trouble with watches.

I've been thinking about a story that involves a defense project where people are taught to interface directly with computers, borne of control of artificial limbs but branched out to control of aircraft, etc. But to do so the subjects and computers have to teach one another a common language, and the virtual constructs borne of that teaching process begin to manifest in real life. The discipline of controlling their minds and emotions gives them the ability to project out of the virtual world they're creating and into other realities. I'm still toying with how to turn it into a page-turner, though.

Sounds like a great story, Tim, have you started a draft?

tim [/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Giselle

My brains have completely fallen out because of open-mindedness?? That's who I am though, and that is how I have extended my knowledge. As far as Metaphysical, I rarely use the term, it brings to mind the hoopla that went on back a few years ago and I mean that in a negative way with the hoopla.

I was speaking more generally, not about you. The funny thing is that most people who use that phrase are pretty narrow; to me it means use your senses to glean what's real from the hoopla, to borrow your term. That's one of the big questions, how do you know what's real? Many people simply can't put themselves under the microscope, and would consider the suggestion a personal attack. To me it's like breathing.

Originally Posted by Giselle

Returning of the article was a bit of a surprise for me. We have had lights turn on and off and things move. I have had loved ones who have died come through dream state, to let me know they are all right. I know they are all right, but miss them terribly, after awakening I feel so much better. Perhaps that one last time to see and talk with them is the soothing part for me through dream state, although one person came back twice. My Father sent a message to my husband through dream state for me, Father popups once in awhile in reality world, not with visualization, but with a very strong feeling of presence.

My wife and I have had similar experiences, though still no physical things returned.

Originally Posted by Giselle

Sounds like a great story, Tim, have you started a draft?

I've written afew passages here and there, but nothing so coherent as a draft, no.

tim

How did the topic of ghosts and what not come up, from a post questioning basic human nature.

Open mindedness for me is to be able to listen or read then think about it, analyze, perhaps I will believe it or not. But I really sway toward the scientific factual information. Will pass on my Father's advice while growing up to you, never attend a seance that is advertised and for pay. Well as time went on he meant a lot more then just seances.

You are real! Your experiences are real! That's all that counts, you don't have to prove anything to anybody, plus you have learned from your experiences, that there is something more to this grand makeup. Somewhere along the way, perhaps already, you will meet people on your same intellectual level, share your experiences while they share theirs. Before you start sharing, you have that esp sense already, you will know if they are credible or not, reading body language also helps too. And it's hard to meet people like this because they are afraid of being attacked, ridiculed, etc. Some people who belong to a religious community have unusual experiences also. One particular sad experience was in a Mormon Community, a wife told her husband who was going off on a camping trip with a bunch of boys, he wouldn't be coming back, the husband knew it also. Well he didn't come back, I happen to be good friends with both Mothers of these two young people. The daughter was gifted and could predict the future.

That's good, you have the story in your mind, in time you will be able to put the story into a manuscript.

Originally Posted by andrei155

How did the topic of ghosts and what not come up, from a post questioning basic human nature.

It comes directly from the question, "How do you know what is real?". Experiences such as ghosts, or God for that matter, can't be quantified (though in the case of ghosts there are those that have tried) and rely predominantly, if not exclusively, on faith. So the question is, is faith for you sufficient as a way of knowing, or do you require empirical evidence to consider something real?

Originally Posted by Giselle

Open mindedness for me is to be able to listen or read then think about it, analyze, perhaps I will believe it or not. But I really sway toward the scientific factual information. Will pass on my Father's advice while growing up to you, never attend a seance that is advertised and for pay. Well as time went on he meant a lot more then just seances.

Good advice. Very good advice. And your definition of open mindedness fits mine, you just put it far more eloquently than I managed to.

Originally Posted by Giselle

You are real! Your experiences are real! That's all that counts, you don't have to prove anything to anybody, plus you have learned from your experiences, that there is something more to this grand makeup. Somewhere along the way, perhaps already, you will meet people on your same intellectual level, share your experiences while they share theirs. Before you start sharing, you have that esp sense already, you will know if they are credible or not, reading body language also helps too. And it's hard to meet people like this because they are afraid of being attacked, ridiculed, etc.

Again, good advice. The point of this exercise is not to be afraid of the big questions, nor to be afraid to examine and reexamine them, and that requires an open mind. Many people don't, or if they do, do so only in passing thoughts. Just like you said, oftentimes if they do they don't share out of fear of what others may think or say. Sorry if I seemed jaded by my comments; that's not really the case.

Our real enemy, to me, is falling into ruts. Remember reciting the Pledge of Allegiance back in grade school? How many times was the meaning of it explained to you? Once, if ever? Many people go through the motions in life, wrap the convenient around them like a protective blanket, and would lash out even at the comment, "You are real! Your experiences are real!" No matter what your background, you can fall into fundamentalism, like the scientists who said powered flight was impossible, like the doctors who thought the brain couldn't rewire itself, like the theologians who rail against teaching evolution (or for that matter birth control while the teenage pregnancy and disease rate skyrockets). Anyone, yes, anyone can fall into that mindset, especially those who don't believe that they can.

Look at a tree. There are as many names for it as there are languages, but the name is not the thing. You can paint a picture of it, take a photograph of it, but the representation is still not the thing. You can examine it at the cellular level, even down to its component atoms and subatomic particles, but your perception of the tree is still not the tree, even if you were able to grasp all of those perceptions at the same time, which no human is capable of. Magnify that to all of reality, and no humans really know what's real, they only have their perceptions. So some grasp what they can and hold on to that for dear life, while others look for as many aspects as they can, but none grasp the big picture. So those who look to one another for the widest grasp, I suppose, at least have more of the picture.

Originally Posted by Giselle

Some people who belong to a religious community have unusual experiences also. One particular sad experience was in a Mormon Community, a wife told her husband who was going off on a camping trip with a bunch of boys, he wouldn't be coming back, the husband knew it also. Well he didn't come back, I happen to be good friends with both Mothers of these two young people. The daughter was gifted and could predict the future.

That is sad, and I'm sorry for their loss. I think everyone has those experiences to varying degrees, in every community. It's hard for many to trust those perceptions, harder still to trust them from someone else. It makes me wonder if we have them to change what's coming, or to prepare us, or both?

tim

Originally Posted by serandfae

1. Ontological (Greek ontos, to be) Who am I? What is basic human nature?

I am that which perceives.
Human nature as opposed to...? I would say, the nature of all living things is to "live". Every living thing that does not have this as part of its nature, stops.

Originally Posted by serandfae

2. Epistemological (Greek episteme, to know) What are the valid sources of knowledge? What makes something "real"?

I've been trying to answer this my whole life.
I once would have said, "that which I perceive". But, after a mis-spent youth, I don't necessarily believe in something just because I see it.

Originally Posted by serandfae

3. Cosmological (Greek kosmos, order) Who or what is the source of ultimate order in the universe?

There is no source of ultimate order (other than us). Third law of thermodynamics.

Originally Posted by serandfae

4. Soteriological (Greek soterion, deliverance) What is my purpose in life?

To leave the universe in better conditiona than I found it.

Originally Posted by serandfae

5. Eschatological (Greek eschata, first or farthest) What does it mean for me to die?

time to recycle some atoms

Originally Posted by serandfae

And, of course, the mother of all questions: Do your answers to these motivate you to set rules for your daily life, and if so, what are they?

absolutely. if not what pupose would I have

Here are my thoughts on ruts and open mindedness...

The brain is the computer, the mind is the power source and memory which stores all those files both negative and positive. From the moment baby enters the world, baby is now being programmed from parents, relatives, teachers, friends, etc. Some of these files are the wrong information, although the people that are programming the information feel the information is correct, which is well known that it isn't always correct. So now baby is a young adult already in their comfort zone, all these years this person has been told what to think.

Now the challenge is how to deprogram all the negative information and learn how to think for yourself. There's where I feel the ruts and open mindedness play a part in their adult life because they are locked into their comfort zone.