Ed I have been often curious about the European countries and UK, where it is illegal to have firearms, how do you people defend yourselves? I am not trying to target you but just curious as to how you defend yourself. And let's face it there are perpetrators all over the world.

A couple of weeks ago this happened in Idaho not too far from me, a 80 year old widower who lived out in the countryside in a beautiful home. Two thugs broke into his home in broad daylight and he shot one, the other got away, but later on the other thug was apprehended by law enforcement. They didn't wear masks, so one can only assume what they would have done. The community was really up in arms over this on behalf of the widower, everybody felt he did the right thing and so did law enforcement. And also everyone felt they targeted him because he was a senior.

Another senior who was a lady, had some perpetrator was trying to snatch her purse, she used a Taser Gun on him, that didn't work so she Tasered him again, that worked.

So my question to you Ed is how do you people defend yourself?

That's a good question Giselle. The couple of times I've had to defend myself in life my fists have worked just fine.

If someone broke into my house, with me in it, they'd get the kicking of their life, but I wouldn't feel the need to shoot them. They're only after posessions after all. If they were armed with a gun I'd let them take whatever they wanted and then call the police.

I guess gun crime is so rare over here it's just not really a consideration. When guns are involved, the police take it very seriously, and they shoot to kill without question. In the UK for example, armed response units give a warning to criminals with guns, and if they don't surrender immediately, they get shot several times (the armed police carry automatic weapons, normally MP5s), and the police shoot to kill. I guess that's a pretty good deterrent.

Originally Posted by NewBreed

@edgray, we were given a republic to begin with and a constitution to follow(this is including the right to bear arms). Try giving a toddler his mom's milk and take it away from him. It's not a pleasant experience and just like the toddler, people get real pissed when it is threatened to be taken away or altered for 2% milk. Hope that analogy makes sense, it's the best I can do at the moment.

That's a good analogy. It makes sense. I guess it's different over in countries like the UK, we don't have a written constitution. Our constitution is "unwritten" and flexible - it moves and varies as society does. That's probably the biggest difference between our nations.

Unfortunately Ed fists and kicking in most cases won't work here, in most cases your life is on the line. Some of the perpetrators carry knives and will slash your throat in a heartbeat just for a few bucks, which is for drug money.

A couple of years ago we had a rash of road rages, in one case, the gentleman cut another one off on the interstate. The second gentleman just couldn't let that go, he was harassing the first guy with his vehicle, calling out obscenities, etc at 60 MPH. The first gentleman got off the interstate to avoid any further incidents or accidents. The second gentleman was right behind him, they ended up in a vacant lot with vacant buildings, the second gentleman got out of his vehicle wielding a knife and the first gentleman pulled out his gun, shot and killed him. Law Enforcement saw this as a justifiable shooting and the man was licensed to carry a concealed weapon.

Some small towns in this country are requiring their citizens to own a gun, with a billboard advertisement as you are entering the towns city limits, each citizen owns a gun, and their crime rate went significantly down.

The only thing I can say each county has to handle gun control that works best for their country in their own way.

I think a big part of the difference of the US vs most of Europe just has to do with the way this country was settled. 150 years ago during the time of Western expansion, people would go out and settle anywhere they could find, and claim the land as their own, instantly becoming property owners. The result was that towns would spring up before there was any proper law-enforcement. Because of this, and the fact that there were natives that were opposed to the expansion, it was normal to carry guns for protection as well as hunting. I think most of our gun toting culture can be linked to this phenomenon, not to the Constitution.

The Constitution doesn't seem to be clearly worded to me whatsoever. After all, if you listen to gun advocacy groups such as the NRA, who clearly believe that the Constitution specifically allows individual citizens to carry arms, they think that anyone should be allowed to carry any firearm that he or she chooses to, including fully automatic weapons.

Every Supreme Court case that has challenged this has ended up deciding that the Constitution in fact only permits a militia, which is why firearms can be and are regulated. Hence, citizens can't carry MP5s unless they are a part of a militia (police, miltary, etc). So we have a gun-toting culture because of the old West, but it's not a constitutionally protected one IMO, no matter all the political posturing.

It's true we have a more violent country than most of Europe, which makes guns more of a protection than it would be if we lived in say, Denmark.

The thing is the US isn't actually any more violent or dangerous than any other western country, except for gun violence. In terms of physical assault, you're equally likely to be attacked in the UK as you are in the US. There is a significantly higher drug problem and drug related offences in countries like Germany and the UK too. The only difference is the number of guns on the street. Seeing as they're illegal, there are fewer of them, and so the chances of being a victim of gun-related violence is very small. (crime stats can be checked at NationMaster).

With regards to the road rage incident you mention Giselle, we have that kind of thing too, but the biggest difference seems in how it's handled. Personally I don't see how the killing was justified. If someone pulls a knife, you back away, you don't need to kill them over it. The person in that case could've easily got back in his car, locked the door and waited for the police to take care of the situation or continued driving to a police station. Acting as judge, jury and executioner IMO shouldn't be the responsibility of everyday citizens.

It's true, each country needs to handle gun control and gun crime as it sees fit. Given the incredibly high number of gun-related murders, I really don't see how the US's current policy is working.

Oh and I hope I'm not causing offence with any of this. It must seem strange to have bloody foreigner commenting on your nations affairs, but my half sister is American and shortly to be joining the police force over there, as you can understand I am naturally quite worried about her...

Originally Posted by edgray

The thing is the US isn't actually any more violent or dangerous than any other western country, except for gun violence. In terms of physical assault, you're equally likely to be attacked in the UK as you are in the US. There is a significantly higher drug problem and drug related offences in countries like Germany and the UK too. The only difference is the number of guns on the street. Seeing as they're illegal, there are fewer of them, and so the chances of being a victim of gun-related violence is very small. (crime stats can be checked at NationMaster).

I'm pretty sure that criminals don't go to their local gun dealer and picked up a registered gun. They get it by other means. So by taking away the right to bear arms just leaves the citizens armless in my perspective, because criminals are still able to get guns, just not legally. What's stopping them?

Side note, thanks for your perspective and the link you dropped. I've been curious of other perspectives outside of the country.

Shoot one if ya see one...Criminal that is

Originally Posted by NewBreed

I'm pretty sure that criminals don't go to their local gun dealer and picked up a registered gun. They get it by other means. So by taking away the right to bear arms just leaves the citizens armless in my perspective, because criminals are still able to get guns, just not legally. What's stopping them?

Side note, thanks for your perspective and the link you dropped. I've been curious of other perspectives outside of the country.

This is, IMO, the strongest case FOR gun ownership. It's true, as the saying goes, outlaw guns and only the outlaws will have them. In countries like the UK, the only gun owners, bar farmers (who are allowed shotguns) and sports marksmen (who I believe can own up to a .22 calibre weapon) are criminals. This does put the balance in their favour.

However, because of the fewer amount of guns in the country, and the increasingly high penalty for being caught in possession of one, the number of criminals with them is very small. Much is done to prevent illegal arms entering the country and with so few people owning them, it's really only the high-level gangsters that can normally get hold of them, and the occasional nutter, which means the average person will never have to deal with them.

I do wonder if the media plays a large part in generating the atmosphere that drives gun ownership. I lived in New York a few years back, and found it to be an incredibly safe city, far safer than my home town of London, for example. I did notice though, that the evening news painted a very different picture from the one I experienced - it seemed there was always some serious crime happening. I can see how that might influence people's decision to buy a gun somewhat.

Thanks NewBreed for not taking offence, none is intended. Personally I find the US such a fascinating country, I pay more attention to the politics and the news from over there than I do over here in Europe!

Well I think we are getting somewhere. USA's borders are not strict to say the least. It's too easy for people to bring illegal immigrants and unwanted items in the US. This has been a problem for years, we've been receiving immigrants criminal records with our arms wide open. I don't think the banning guns would help with our current laws at the moment. Often criminals have more rights than the hard working citizen or have more drug money to throw at a lawyer. I'd rather shoot'em then let them have a "fair trial" if my house was being broken into and I was being threatened.

"We have a gun-toting culture because of the old West"? Abel the settlers are the one who brought the guns over with them and that was on the east coast. Who were the settlers, the Europeans. Who wrote the constitution, the settlers who were Europeans, it sure wasn't the Native Americans, they were still using bows and arrows and knives.

On the road rage issue Ed, I seen this for myself on the local news, the second man pulled his vehicle and blocked the first man's car, the first man's car was up against the building there was no way out for him and I did see how the vehicles were parked. For me I would have drawn my gun seeing as he was wielding a knife and gave a warning, tried to call the police, I believe this first man tried to do this also. Personally if this man took a step closer to me I would have dropped the hammer too, no regrets. The best part to this was since that incident I haven't heard on the local news about anymore road rage, so apparently this sent a very serious message.

You aren't causing any kind of offense on my part Ed, we are discussing this issue on an adult level on both sides here. Your half sister will be fine, although I know you will still worry anyway. Nowadays they have some real extensive training, a lot different then when my husband was in law enforcement. As Johnny mentioned, if the American citizens could no longer own guns, it would be the perpetrators that would have all the guns, as a citizen where would we stand, a perpetrator would control the country more or less. I was born and raised in the city of Chicago with loaded guns in the house, in that day, guns were not for protection but for sportsmanship, hunting and competition, times have certainly changed from that period of time.

Brian that's the FBI way, K-5 them, saves court costs.

I have two handguns both revolvers both 22's the smallest but I'm going to get me a 44 magnum the most powerful handgun known to man or that's what dirty hairy says I think there is a 50 caliper now OMG i wouldn't want to shoot that. We just had a 15 year old girl shot in the head with a 357 by her 15 year olf friend. she pointed the gun to the floor and pulled the trigger and nothing happened then she pointed it towards her friend and pulled the trigger and it went off. She was such a pretty girl too. People usually leave the frist chamber empty to avoid accidental shootings. If you have guns in the house train those old enough to use them. If young ones are around have the trigger locks on them.

Sad story, Wolf. We teach our kids to treat every gun as if it was loaded, whether it is or not, and NEVER to point a gun, loaded or not, at anyone or anything you don't intend to shoot to kill.

Glock makes a 50 caliber semi-auto capable of cracking an engine block, but it's so well-balanced that there's very little recoil for something that's effectively a cannon. Small for its power, too. I fired one a friend had when I took my concealed carry class. Love to find another one, but they're pretty hard to find.

tim

@Giselle
Well it does sound like the gentleman involved wasn't given much choice, if the guy with the knife didn't back off when the gun was pulled it's kind of his own fault... maybe a shot in the leg might have worked though? Not having been in a situation like that it's difficult for me to imagine what it must be like...

Thinking about it, I completely agree that outlawing guns in the US at this moment would not be the best solution at all, and would leave a lot of people quite defenceless. The key might simply be to increase border security to try and halt the flow of illegal weapons into the country.

In London a few years back the police conducted an extensive stop and search operation targetting young black males. The operation was considered very racist, though the police did extend it to young white males too eventually. It was hugely successful in taking guns and other weaponry off the streets. Maybe something like that might be a good tack. The need really is to remove guns from the hands of criminals.

I think this all highlights prehaps a big difference in our nationalities psychology though, I don't think anyone in the UK would wish another person dead for robbery or burglary or mugging, or even violent assault. Prison would be fine. Possibly it stems from deep-seated beliefs in human nature. In Europe we tend to believe more that criminals are made, and not born, and thus everyone in society has some responsibility for the way people turn out, good or bad.

Thanks for the reassurances about my sis. I'm sure she'll be fine, it's just natural to worry about those you love.

@Wolf
A very sad story indeed

Ed the problem with shooting them in the leg or arm, not killing them, but just wounding them, the perpetrator now turns around and sues you. I don't know how many cases where the criminal sues the victim and wins the law suit, isn't this a great country? Plus another thing the criminals receive light sentences and they are out doing the same thing again over and over. When your half sister starts serving in law enforcement, she can really fill you in on the inside scoop, just what really is going on, you will have a better understanding of our legal flaws.

And just who is responsible for the death of a 15 year old girl? Playing with loaded guns inside a house or outside for that matter? Well that isn't the first case and that certainly won't be the last case until the gun owner takes responsibility for owning a gun, having a gun in the house and the responsibility that goes with owning a gun. Why not takes the kids outside or to a firing range and do a little target practice, the kick and noise alone is terrifying, they will get the picture real quick, I know ours did. Plus the kids learned to load and unload the weapons, even helped make ammunition.

Am I hard core on this issue, you bet, I have seen so many many innocent people victimized, either through rapes, muggings, killings, etc. The American people have had enough and that's why the attitude is the way it is, we have to act like a reserve police force with rules and we have the support of the law enforcement. Basically Ed, we are a kind, loving, generous people and don't wish anybody dead or harmed, unless we are threatened and in most cases our life is on the line.

They can sue you for defending yourself???!!!

Jeez, I did not know that.

I didn't realise the penal system over there was so lenient...

Yes Ed you get sued for defending yourself, in some cases, in the case of the road rage, if that criminal wielding the knife was wounded believe me he would have sued the victim and won. How it works over here in most cases, the victim becomes the perpetrator and the criminal becomes the victim.

Here's an example of lawsuits, a few years back the next door neighbor had a dog all of a sudden. We couldn't go out back because the dog was on our property growling and barring his teeth. Now we talked to the neighbor who was also a friend about keeping the dog contained on his property. This went on for some time without any results, so I called Animal Control to see what our rights were, although I had heard this before, but wanted to make sure I heard the facts correctly. The lady asked me the name of the neighbor and then asked for the description of the dog, as it turns out this dog was considered a dangerous dog, there had been several incidents with this dog in another neighborhood. He was divorced from his wife who lived in another neighborhood, so he decided to bring the dog here. The lady told me I had to kill the dog on my property, if dog ran back to his property wounded now I am open for a lawsuit, and the lady told me this twice and she wanted me to dispose of this animal. What I did I went out back, yelled over to the neighbor what my intentions were and the dog mysteriously disappeared, but not my hand.

So you can see why our attitude is the way it is, law enforcement is spread so thinly, that's why they support people like us who are registered concealed gun carriers. Each state has it's own rules about gun control and to secure a concealed gun permit one has to be finger printed, the FBI does a very thorough investigation on the individual who wants to secure the permit. I am marked for life, I couldn't even grab a mask and do some midnight shopping. I will mention this again, I have to follow the rules of my state, I just can't go around shooting people either, which I wouldn't want to anyhow, but there are stringent rules that I have to abide by, the key here is responsibility and sensibility.

That's really crazy. I can't believe they let the criminals sue their victims, that is shocking. And shame on the money-grabbing lawyers that take the cases on.

So it seems to me, from what you have been saying, that the problem isn't in gun ownership, but more in a) availability of illegal firearms b) lenient penal system

I don't know why, but I always imagined the US penal system to be like the UK's - very strict. That said, I have heard of cases of people getting off very lightly in England these days...

Out of interest, say if someone was caught with an illegal firearm in the US, what kind of sentence would they expect?

Ed I can't answer your question, I was very curious myself what a person would receive as a sentence for an illegal firearm. Seeing as my husband served in law enforcement many years ago, he couldn't answer the question either, so I called several agencies to find out the answer. I started off at the Prosecutor's office, there was some humor there, the gentleman thought I was questioning my case. But I ended up at the US Customs office which deals strictly with firearms, the answer was too many variables, such as, does the person have a criminal history, another variable would be, did this happen in city, county or state. The man also mentioned each state has their own rules and laws, so the variables would be different. I am going to go out on the limb on this one, if this was just a upstanding ordinary citizen who has an illegal weapon, I would like to say perhaps a stiff fine, no jail sentence, of course this would depend on the Prosecutor's office too and the variables.

You sure nailed that one, there's the problem the money grabbing attorneys who will take these cases, let's face most of these criminals have the money to hire the best defense lawyer in the country. There's OJ Simpson case, I don't need to say anymore.

The US Penal system used to be very strict, what's happened is the prisons are so overcrowded, they are sentencing with light sentences, get them into system and get them out as soon as possible. I just wonder if your country, England, isn't having the same problem with overcrowded prisons like the US? There was talk from law enforcement and the Judges about legalizing drugs to lighten up the prisons and have a better control over the drug usage like alcohol.

No the problem isn't with the gun owners, the problem is with the criminals, they will always have the guns through black market in this country. And these criminals are well connected in all areas.

If a dog owner can sue me just imagine what a criminal with a good lawyer can get away with. I can't tell you how many cases where the criminal has sued the victim and won.

Here's one for you, brand new case I just seen yesterday local news, a young lady is suing the city for I believe the figure was $450,000 - 269,857.09 GBP for a police officer molesting her during her arrest for a DWI and Marijuana use. This is the 4th offense for the young lady for the same thing, while being out on the roadside and handcuffed the police officer padded her down which was to include under her mini dress. What he did with both hands ran his hands up and down her legs very quickly, mind you this was all on police car camera which we seen, there was nothing inappropriate on the policeman's part at all. Might add, oh yeah, she has a lawyer!

Is this a great country or what? No wonder I don't have any money, I never sued anybody!

Thanks for the info Giselle. It seems they're pretty lenient on illegal firearms over there. I've been swotting up on UK gun law and the wikipedia entry is pretty helpful:

Unlike in the United States, there is practically no modern organised "right to keep and bear arms" lobby in the United Kingdom, and little debate between pro-gun control and pro-gun ownership advocates. These two situations create what is believed to be some of the strictest gun legislation in the world

It would seem that simply posessing a firearm in the UK will get you 3 - 5 years in prison, irrelevent of how upstanding a citizen you are. What's also interesting is that our Olympic marksmen have to train abroad and recieve NO FUNDING because they're chosen sport is considered illegal in Britain! Crazy!

We do have very overcrowded prisons in England. It's been a problem for many years now, and has lead the government to try and keep as many young offenders out of prison as possible. This has created a serious problem of troubled youth effecting society. We have had a lot of debate about legalising drugs too: cannibis was rescheduled in 2001, essentially decriminalising it, but that was revoked last year due to the current govt being frightened of appearing soft on the issue. Stupid really, because usage actually went down during that time...

The drug problem in the UK is huge, with some police chiefs claiming that 75% of all crime is now drug related, be it anti-social behaviour, dealing and trafficking and the most common crime in the UK, theft and assault. Our govt seems reluctant to actually do something constructive about the problem, and it continues to get worse every year.

Overall though, crime is on the fall in the UK.

It really does seem as though the biggest problem in the US is with litigation. Lawyers in the UK seem to be reluctant to take on the kind of cases you'd see in the US. If a criminal was trying to sue a victim for whatever reason, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't get very far. But, as our police get more and more heavy handed, recently killing an old man at the G20 protests in London, I'm sure there will be more and more court cases brought against the authorities, and possibly this might move to cases against victims too.

I know it sometimes must seem otherwise, but the US is a great country. Like everywhere, there are just a few bugs to iron out. Tell you what, we'll swap your greedy lawyers for all our trouble-causing chavs*!

(* for details on what a "chav" is, look here)

Oh my Ed, 3-5 years in prison for an upstanding citizen for having an illegal gun. There was a question I forgot to ask the other day at the US Customs office. So I called up the Washington State Police office this morning, very informative. My question was this, while living in Montana, there was no such thing as permits, the only rule there was a loaded weapon had to be out in the open, therefore holstered or a gun rack in the cab of your pickup truck. I would say just about every truck had a gun rack in their truck cab year around. This wasn't for criminal activity, this was for wildlife going after your stock or perhaps cattle rustling. When I moved here to Washington, one day out in the country a gentleman had his car stuck on the rail road tracks, it was bizarre but he couldn't move the vehicle, I thought I could bump him off but the vehicles didn't line up. So he asked me if I would get into his car, the keys were in the ignition, he would give me instructions on what to do while he pushed the car manually. As I opened up the car door there was a loaded gun sitting on the console, of course coming from Montana I didn't think a thing about it.

The question here, can a citizen carry without a permit a loaded gun visibly, she wouldn't recommend it at all in this state. Although there is a variable to this, if I was walking through the woods (no gun permit) holstered that would be all right, due to the wildlife. I mentioned Montana's rules, she started laughing and said, "Montana is whole different ballgame." So apparently Montana is still pretty loose with their rules. I went on to say there in Montana it wasn't for criminal activity, she started laughing again and said, "how could they with all the guns exposed, you aren't going have that much criminal activity." So I said something like "Colorado's make my day law?" She said yes and was laughing, the attitude here with these law enforcement agencies, they really want you to secure a gun permit and are so happy to hear you have one.

Now the next question was, suppose I am an upstanding citizen, law enforcement office stops me for a broken tail light, he now finds out I have a concealed weapon and I don't have a permit, she said they would get a ticket, I asked a stiff fine too and the answer was yes. This is for the state of Washington, this could be quite different throughout the other states.