We all remember the quote from almost 30 years ago, “If an unfriendly foreign power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.” An educated next generation is in everybody's best interest, except maybe the people running for public office.

China needs Americans to have jobs, so we can buy things from WalMart. I need young people to have jobs, since Bush failed to gut social security, and I'll get some of what I put in, back out to fund my retirement. Bill Gates needs the public to be educated, so he can hire smart people to write Outlook 2011. Europe needs a strong, educated America in part because competition with Airbus brings down prices for consumers.

Here are the questions I'd like to ask

1. What, specifically, is wrong with our education system?
2. What can we do to fix it?
3. Assuming it can be fixed (I think it can), do we want that to apply to everybody, or only students with rich parents? In other words, do we want an educated public, or a class of ivory tower elites?

I have some answers I'd like to suggest, but I'll do so in a reply, so as not to mix the question with some proposed answers.

I'll start off in reverse order, and suggest that (this should be obvious) we want to make education available to everybody. And up to some acceptable level, we want it to be compulsory to everybody. My kids shouldn't be allowed to say "I'm going to stop going to school and play football all day. You'll pay taxes, I'll get welfare out of them, so I don't need to learn". There will always be winners and losers, but people shouldn't be allowed to quit the game.

Also, quality instruction has to be available to everyone, for mostly the same reasons. But we'll throw in that I don't want some Republican's kid to be unemployable, and break into my car for the stereo as a result. Nor do I want him panhandling, etc. Which means my own best interests are somewhat intertwined with other peoples. I have an obligation to support public schooling, even for other people's children, because I enjoy the benefits of living in an educated society.

From this, I think it follows that a lot of the politics around private schooling is a part of the problem. Not private school itself - if you can afford the very best for your child, more power to you. But, that doesn't remove your obligation to the public good, which you enjoy benefits of. A lot of people think they have only the obligation to educate their own child, so that if they pay for a private school, they think they have no interest in the public school. I mean financial and beyond. We should all want quality schools for all children, whether we pay for them or not. And I think the idea that schools should compete against one another as if they were capitalist entities and wins and losses was acceptable, is a serious problem. If your child is going to be CEO of IBM, she still needs talented employees, and consumers who can afford her products.

I think hostility to science and learning are big problems, too, and they come from both the right and the left.

I think we need to decide whether art and such are a priority or not, for education. Either they're siphoning resources (time, more than money) from math, science, and history, or they're rounding out a child's education.

I think standardized testing is a very good idea, and horribly botched the way it's been implemented. There should be a minimum level of education that's acceptable. If people in the 12th grade can't read or write their own names, it's not acceptable to say "Well, that's just how they do it in the southeast". Sadly, that's led to a situation were children are being taught how to take a very specific test, instead of how to be a productive member of society.

Finally, education is boring. Instead of trains leaving Florida and Arizona at the same time going different speeds, there have to be better ways to leave a lasting impression on students, and convey information they need. I personally think the physics simulations in video games would be valuable in schools.

Those are some of my thoughts, but I'd like to hear what other people have to say?

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

1. What, specifically, is wrong with our education system?
2. What can we do to fix it?
3. Assuming it can be fixed (I think it can), do we want that to apply to everybody, or only students with rich parents? In other words, do we want an educated public, or a class of ivory tower elites?

I have some answers I'd like to suggest, but I'll do so in a reply, so as not to mix the question with some proposed answers.

1. Funding and both parent and teacher apathy

2. Besides putting money into the education system, and making sure that money is put in the correct places and used for the proper things, I have no idea. How can you make a parent care about their child's education?

3. A good education should be available to EVERYONE. We need an educated public. Even with equal education opportunities, not everyone will become CEOs or Astronauts. For example, my sister wants to be a radiologist. I can't stand to be near anyone sick, anyone bleeding, and can't even watch CSI because it grosses me out (ie. the medical field makes me want to faint). I am a "web specialist" (meaning I work with many different aspects of creating websites - well, that is what my job title is at least). My sister hates art and computers. She probably wouldn't touch a computer if it weren't for her facebook and myspace accounts. Even if we were given the exact same education opportunities, we still would have gone different routes. I need people like her to fix my herniated disks, she needs people like me to fix her hard disks (hehe).

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

I'll start off in reverse order, and suggest that (this should be obvious) we want to make education available to everybody. And up to some acceptable level, we want it to be compulsory to everybody. My kids shouldn't be allowed to say "I'm going to stop going to school and play football all day. You'll pay taxes, I'll get welfare out of them, so I don't need to learn". There will always be winners and losers, but people shouldn't be allowed to quit the game.

I agree!

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

Also, quality instruction has to be available to everyone, for mostly the same reasons. But we'll throw in that I don't want some Republican's kid to be unemployable, and break into my car for the stereo as a result. Nor do I want him panhandling, etc. Which means my own best interests are somewhat intertwined with other peoples. I have an obligation to support public schooling, even for other people's children, because I enjoy the benefits of living in an educated society.

I don't want some Democrat's kid to break into my house and steal my Christmas presents either.

I think this means we, as a society, ARE obligated to support public schooling, even for the sake of other children because I enjoy living in an educated society.

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

From this, I think it follows that a lot of the politics around private schooling is a part of the problem. Not private school itself - if you can afford the very best for your child, more power to you. But, that doesn't remove your obligation to the public good, which you enjoy benefits of. A lot of people think they have only the obligation to educate their own child, so that if they pay for a private school, they think they have no interest in the public school. I mean financial and beyond. We should all want quality schools for all children, whether we pay for them or not. And I think the idea that schools should compete against one another as if they were capitalist entities and wins and losses was acceptable, is a serious problem. If your child is going to be CEO of IBM, she still needs talented employees, and consumers who can afford her products.

If you can afford private schooling for your child, by all means, give them private schooling. However, I think private schools should be required to meet a certain standard. They should meet the same requriements that public schools are required to meet.

Also, I think these same people who send their kids to private schools, should still have to pay taxes for public schools. Again, for the same reason of being able to enjoy living in an educated society.

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

I think hostility to science and learning are big problems, too, and they come from both the right and the left.

Yes. For example, the whole evolution debate. Let the teacher teach both sides of debate. Maybe we evolved from other animals....maybe we were made from a grain of sand....maybe both??? Put the facts out there, and let the child/young adult decide which to believe more. How can we move forward if we don't provide all the information we already have to our young?

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

I think we need to decide whether art and such are a priority or not, for education. Either they're siphoning resources (time, more than money) from math, science, and history, or they're rounding out a child's education.

I think art is very important! As is music. Maybe not everyone is going to be an artist or a musician, but this rounds out a child's education and allows them to experiment with things they may enjoy as a career. Doesn't Adobe need artists to purchase their Photoshop software?

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

I think standardized testing is a very good idea, and horribly botched the way it's been implemented. There should be a minimum level of education that's acceptable. If people in the 12th grade can't read or write their own names, it's not acceptable to say "Well, that's just how they do it in the southeast". Sadly, that's led to a situation were children are being taught how to take a very specific test, instead of how to be a productive member of society.

Communism is good in theory too. It just doesn't work out in the real world. We need to come up with a way to measure education standards that works better.

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

Finally, education is boring. Instead of trains leaving Florida and Arizona at the same time going different speeds, there have to be better ways to leave a lasting impression on students, and convey information they need. I personally think the physics simulations in video games would be valuable in schools.

Those are some of my thoughts, but I'd like to hear what other people have to say?

Education IS boring...I like your suggestion! I had a physics professor in college who was awesome! He played with liquid nitrogen, had a crazy scientist alter ego, and came up with some of the coolest word problems (ie. If you dropped Doctor Destructo (my professor's alter ego) off of the top of the clock tower which is XX feet high, how long would it take for him to hit the ground).

Originally Posted by angele803

I don't want some Democrat's kid to break into my house and steal my Christmas presents either.

You certainly don't! It's no secret that I disagree with 90 % of the things most Republicans believe, and even with that, I think I have an obligation to do my part even when it benefits Republicans. I didn't say that because there's anything particular to Republicans - actually quite the opposite. If you buy the line about Democrats and Republicans as mortal enemies, then even with that, we're in the same boat together.

Originally Posted by angele803

Yes. For example, the whole evolution debate. Let the teacher teach both sides of debate. Maybe we evolved from other animals....maybe we were made from a grain of sand....maybe both??? Put the facts out there, and let the child/young adult decide which to believe more. How can we move forward if we don't provide all the information we already have to our young?

This, I think, is an example of an attack on learning that comes mostly from the right. Evolution is a fact, it's something that happens in the real world, and it's something people were trying to explain 100 years before Darwin published his book. Creationism has no place in a science education, because it's not science. We could get into a debate on this topic, but since we're talking about what's wrong with our education system and how it might be fixed, I think it's best to avoid the question for now. I think Creationism should be taught, in religion, philosophy, and literature classes. I think science should be taught in science class.

A big part of the solution, I think, is that we need to teach things because they're true, and not because we like what they might imply. Out of fairness and all that, let's talk about an attach on science and learning that comes from the left. You hear a lot of liberals saying "Christianity is bad, too, it's not just Islam. We have our own set of wacko terrorists, and it's always a fluke". There's a Christian minister shooting up abortion clinics once every 20 years. But a lot of people on the left have this devotion to equality, and making everyone feel happy. Fact is, Christianity has historically been a force for tremendous good in the world, and pretending this isn't so while crying about "Islamophobia" is a fraud.

Originally Posted by angele803

Communism is good in theory too. It just doesn't work out in the real world. We need to come up with a way to measure education standards that works better.

I agree, on both parts. What I was getting at was that, I believe, the idea behind standardized testing is a good one. The standards testing hasn't worked out for the best, and it seems like we ought to scrap it. But it was trying to accomplish something good, and I think it's important not to lose sight of that - not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. If we agree that there are standards everyone should have to meet, we should find a better way to ensure that.

Originally Posted by angele803

Education IS boring...I like your suggestion! I had a physics professor in college who was awesome! He played with liquid nitrogen, had a crazy scientist alter ego, and came up with some of the coolest word problems (ie. If you dropped Doctor Destructo (my professor's alter ego) off of the top of the clock tower which is XX feet high, how long would it take for him to hit the ground).

I haven't been in school for a long time, and I don't have kids, so I have to admit I'm a little out of my league here. But when I went through school it was, well, there was no apparent reason to learn much. I remember being taught about cosines before anyone explained why I should care about them. Mad scientists playing with fire balls in front of the class or showing how gravity works in a 3D shoot em up game, this stuff gets to things teens are interested in.

What do you think about English and literature classes? I remember being forced to read Crime and Punishment, and my eyes falling out at around page 98,000 or so. I know these are the cannons of western literature and all that, but are they really something that's a necessary part of a basic education? Maybe the reading skills could be learned from modern books that kids will take an interest in? Even something like the story of Google is probably easier to connect to.

Wouldn't know.. Pulled my kid out of school in the 4th grade and home schooled her.. Too liberal, too radical, and the school stopped giving tests because they felt that it was forcing some kids to cheat to succeed.. And they simply didn't want to put the poor children in that position..

Segregate the kids.. Smart kids move on.. Ambitious kids move on.. Kids who choose not to learn, and there are quite a few of those, send them home for their parents to deal with.. Bring back trade skills classes.. Bring back music classes.. Bring back art classes..

Allow children to rise and fall according to their skills.. Stop teaching at the slowest, lowest, common denominator..

At a pilot school in New Mexico there were no "grades" as we normally view them.. There were various levels of math, science, drama, art, English, etc.. If you were outstanding in science, you went to the level of science class you could handle.. Sucked at English?? You went to the class that you could do well in.. It was not uncommon to see kids, in elementary school, 4 years apart in age in the same class doing the same work..

It is a brilliant way to teach and allow all children to actually work at the level they were capable of, be challenged, and be successful at an age when learning to learn is most important..

And for the record, before I pulled my kid out of school I tried to volunteer both in New Mexico (it was a blast) and in California (it sucked)..

EAT: I have no idea how to react, or even care, about your 90% comment.. It makes me wonder just what you think a republican is..

You pulled out your kid out of 4th grade? You segregated your child because of what? where does he fall here

Segregate the kids.. Smart kids move on.. Ambitious kids move on.. Kids who choose not to learn, and there are quite a few of those, send them home for their parents to deal with..

Originally Posted by jabo

You pulled out your kid out of 4th grade? You segregated your child because of what? where does he fall here

"Segregated" is such a strong word. Is there something wrong with homeschooling?

What's wrong is that our education system was designed in the Industrial age to make good, productive little employees out of our children. But we're not in the Industrial age any more, we're in the Information age.

If we want to stand a chance at keeping up with countries like China and India over the next 50 years, we have GOT to start teaching financial literacy and entrepreneurship.

But I doubt it will happen. There's too much politics. The federal government shouldn't even be involved in education according to the Constitution. Parents need to stop using school (and television) as a babysitter and start taking responsibility for their children's future. We need to start holding our elected representatives accountable for their bankrupting of our society and mortgaging our children's future.

Yeah, and pigs will fly to the moon.

Originally Posted by Learning Newbie

What do you think about English and literature classes? I remember being forced to read Crime and Punishment, and my eyes falling out at around page 98,000 or so. I know these are the cannons of western literature and all that, but are they really something that's a necessary part of a basic education? Maybe the reading skills could be learned from modern books that kids will take an interest in? Even something like the story of Google is probably easier to connect to.

That's a good question. Generally, I love to read and always have. One summer in elementary school, I went through about 2-3 books a week. (granted they were 100-page RL Stine books, but it was reading none-the-less.) But, in high school, we had to read books that made me want to have a book burning bonfire. I think people should have some general knowledge of classic literature to a point. But I am not sure forcing a kid to read Crime and Punishment is a good way to accomplish this. If the goal is to improve reading skills, I would say they should have kids read modern books that the kids will take interest in - books that many of them might read on their own time anyway - or books that a child would actually enjoy even if they aren't a big reader.

If we want to stand a chance at keeping up with countries like China and India over the next 50 years, we have GOT to start teaching financial literacy and entrepreneurship.

I think financial literacy is important too. I think a lot of schools are finally moving toward more financial and business education. Some high schools even have entrepreneur clubs now.

One of the things I haven't seen mentioned in this thread that would improve the state of our schools is some kind of an aptitude test for the teachers. I have run into many a teacher that either should never have been in the profession or should have retired years before my kids were born. If you are not a good artist, you will not be able to make a living at it. Yet there are countless teachers in the school systems that don't care if they actually teach the kids anything.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all teachers are bad or that teaching is an easy profession. Personally, I don't think I would make it through an entire semester without inflicting bodily harm on some of the little brats in schools today. But I'm not a teacher. We are entrusting our future to these people for 8 hours a day, most weekdays that is more time than I get to spend with my children. Shouldn't there be some system of holding the teachers accountable other than the students test scores?

I don't want the teachers to parent my children, in fact I've had issues with teachers that over stepped their bounds in disciplining my children. I've also had teachers tell me that there is nothing they can do when a child misbehaves in their class or isn't paying attention. If a teacher feels that ineffectual, doesn't find any resolution by speaking with their superiors and gives up, what good are they to my child or anyone elses?

Originally Posted by cbwm

"Segregated" is such a strong word. Is there something wrong with homeschooling?

There are experiences that can be acquired in school. If a child enters highschool and/or college, could he/she say that she/he was homeschooled and be admitted?

Originally Posted by Feydakin

Segregate the kids.. Smart kids move on.. Ambitious kids move on.. Kids who choose not to learn, and there are quite a few of those, send them home for their parents to deal with.. Bring back trade skills classes.. Bring back music classes.. Bring back art classes..

Allow children to rise and fall according to their skills.. Stop teaching at the slowest, lowest, common denominator..

This would fix our education system unfortunately this would never be allowed to happen because liberals would say that's not nice and we need to force the kids who don't want to learn to go to school and slow down the other kids. Liberalism will kill this country in the name of niceness.

Originally Posted by Cheshire_cat

This would fix our education system unfortunately this would never be allowed to happen because liberals would say that's not nice and we need to force the kids who don't want to learn to go to school and slow down the other kids. Liberalism will kill this country in the name of niceness.

At risk of sounding like a liberal here, I think mandatory public education is critical to the competitiveness of America in the global marketplace. If that premise is true, letting a large number of people fail in our public schools is an unacceptable outcome(unless we can deport those who fail). Those people fall through the cracks and become our criminals and those dependent on the system, rather than those propelling the system forward and feeding it. Capitalism needs good consumers and producers.

That said, those attending private schools will likely always get a better education, and rightly so.

Originally Posted by jabo

There are experiences that can be acquired in school. If a child enters highschool and/or college, could he/she say that she/he was homeschooled and be admitted?

Yes. Standardized testing and matriculation take care of those issues. You don't even have to attend law school to be a lawyer, so long as you can pass the Bar. I agree that school gives a social education that is hard to get at home, though it is possible to home-school and enroll your children in extra-curricular sports activities to gain those social benefits.

Originally Posted by jabo

You pulled out your kid out of 4th grade? You segregated your child because of what? where does he fall here

Apparently you aren't aware of just how big the home school community in the US is..

And for the record, "she" started college at 16, had 10 years of 4H, 5 years of drama, 5 years of team sports, and had a job, earning enough money, to buy her first home at 19..

You might understand some day when you have kids and see your intelligent child being forced to work so slow that she can't stand school just so some other kids don't feel "pressured" by the workload.. If the slower kids are having problems, get them the help they need, but don't slow everyone else down to keep them bunched together in some arbitrary grade system..

Could you imagine how much work would suck if you could never move ahead based on your ability and were forced to work, and be paid, at the rate of the slowest person there??

Originally Posted by Feydakin

Apparently you aren't aware of just how big the home school community in the US is..

And for the record, "she" started college at 16, had 10 years of 4H, 5 years of drama, 5 years of team sports, and had a job, earning enough money, to buy her first home at 19..

You might understand some day when you have kids and see your intelligent child being forced to work so slow that she can't stand school just so some other kids don't feel "pressured" by the workload.. If the slower kids are having problems, get them the help they need, but don't slow everyone else down to keep them bunched together in some arbitrary grade system..

Could you imagine how much work would suck if you could never move ahead based on your ability and were forced to work, and be paid, at the rate of the slowest person there??

Well said, now I see the point. I do remember when I was still in school (which I did not do very well). Took me about 4 or 5 course to fully discover what I really like. More than 3 years in college is wasted just in searching for what I would really enjoy doing.

Originally Posted by cbwm

At risk of sounding like a liberal here, I think mandatory public education is critical to the competitiveness of America in the global marketplace. If that premise is true, letting a large number of people fail in our public schools is an unacceptable outcome(unless we can deport those who fail). Those people fall through the cracks and become our criminals and those dependent on the system, rather than those propelling the system forward and feeding it. Capitalism needs good consumers and producers.

I'm not sure how making kids that don't want to be in school go to school makes them into good consumers...? explain.

Originally Posted by Cheshire_cat

I'm not sure how making kids that don't want to be in school go to school makes them into good consumers...? explain.

You have to earn money to spend money (be a consumer). Several other statistics bear out that violent crime is more strongly related to employment and poverty levels than it is to gun laws or even quantity of law enforcement officers on the street. Crime costs us all money in insurance and taxes(enforcement, processing, incarceration) which could be better spent killing people over seas. At the end of the day, an educated population equals more dead terrorists.

Originally Posted by cbwm

You have to earn money to spend money (be a consumer). Several other statistics bear out that violent crime is more strongly related to employment and poverty levels than it is to gun laws or even quantity of law enforcement officers on the street. Crime costs us all money in insurance and taxes(enforcement, processing, incarceration) which could be better spent killing people over seas. At the end of the day, an educated population equals more dead terrorists.

I'm not saying just let them sit at home; bring back vocational schools and send them there; not to college prep schools. Why send them to a school that is preparing them for college when they are not going to college?

i think that even if our educational system is like this....as long as your willing to learn the power of learning is still in your hands...