Discussion: How to improve contests

**LadynRed** · 07-07-2008, 05:05 PM

I have to agree with Angele803, if the contest isn't worth enough, and none of the serious designers bother to participate, then you'll see fewer of the $20 ones for serious businesses because they're just not going to get a good piece for pennies.

There are always going to be people trying to undercut the market - it happens in any free market economy - and there will always be people who just can't afford more and some designers to fill that niche, you're never going to stop that.

Quote:

I don't think anyones willing to give that a try.

Why not ? Serious designers should simply stay away from the contests that are not worth their time to do. You know what your time and talent are worth. How much recognition do you think you really get for producing a $20 logo for someone ? Not much.. so why bother entering ? You shouldn't ! I wouldn't.

**JoshChris** · 07-07-2008, 06:46 PM

I think what Ninjax and I are saying is that there's not enough of the higher paying contests to ignore the lower paying ones. We have to take what we get - and that's frustrating and not quite fair.

**vangogh** · 07-07-2008, 07:42 PM

If you ignore the lower paying contests then the people who post them will either raise the price or stop posting. If people do enter $20 contest then you're going to see more $20 contests.

You don't have to take what you can get. You get what you get, because you keep taking it. Huh? I'm not sure if that made sense. Something I learned in my own business was that I started making more money once I started saying no to people who didn't want to pay me fairly.

None of us can force people to post contests for more money. I agree that many of the prizes offered are too low, but that's why I don't ever participate. I know everyone would like to see more money offered, but as long as people enter low paying contests you're going to continue to see low paying contests.

We created a subforum for $20 under contests and are now requiring people to post the prices in all contest thread titles so they should be easier to find and ignore.

I believe changes are coming to the system. You'll have to ask Tim or Lee as to when that might happen. The idea of an escrow is one that would keep CHs more honest, but it does require a lot of work on the part of the forum and would probably require a fee. It's something that's been talked about, but at the moment I don't think it's something the forum is leaning towards. Just my observation as I'm not the one who would be making that decision.

One thing to remember with these contests is you're free to join or not join. I understand they can be a good way to make some extra cash, but truthfully most of you are talented enough to make even more money selling design services through your own site. I've seen some great designs in these contests.

If the main complaints are about the money that can be made understand there are much better ways to make money than entering contests. If you set up a website you can charge for an hour's work what you're hoping someone will offer in a contest.

And again please watermark your images. If you don't there's little you can do outside the legal system to keep someone from stealing your work.

One more thing to consider. Think of this from the perspective of someone wanting to start a contest. They look around at what other people are offering and see the response and the quality of the designs. If someone sees a great logo being entered in a $20 contest why would they feel the need to offer more?

The message you're leaving is you're willing to participate in low paying contests. People starting contests will see that and start more low paying contests. If a $20 contest yields little quality then people should start offering more.

**Charliehorse** · 05:49 PM

I understand your frustration believe me I do very much so but I'm the CEO of a very busy non profit and I don't exactly have a lot of time to post and I can't keep getting crap work or no work in this last case. The customer service from these big logo machines companies is really getting horrendous. Know what I mean? What I do believe is giving back to individuals, not big corporations. I've found the kindest and the most caring people this way. I would rather give my money to a struggling student or single mother/father than to these corporations. Therefore your post count, although most likely very necessary, is also restrictive and tends to leave out those with good intentions. I do understand the need for this but maybe if your admin had the time, this should be on a case by case basis? Just a thougt.

Just my take and a little frustration as I wanted to post a nice logo contest but I've yet to post 20 posts and probably won't be able to for some time but I need a good logo now.

Thanks

Charlie

Quote:

Originally Posted by angele803

This might not be the correct place to put this, but I wanted to get input from designers and contest holders. I have been a member of webmaster-talk.com for a while now and have participated in several design contests. I have not entered many lately because of all the scams and problems we have had here lately. I just wanted to start a discussion to get ideas on how to improve the contest section of the site. Maybe if the mods see some of our ideas, they will get put into action. I have a few ideas.

1. Minimum post limit to run a contest. I know Tim mentioned this in an earlier post. I think someone should have at least some kind of reputation around here before we can trust them to run a contest. I know I don't enter contests from a brand new member. I just dont trust 'em.

2. Maybe have a feedback rating like ebay or namepros.com.

3. Enforce watermarking.

What other ideas do you guys have?

**vangogh** · 07-28-2008, 07:28 PM

It's possible that there are people with good intentions who it keeps from starting a contest, but it mostly keeps away the people with less than good intentions.

It's really not that hard to post 20 times and it's not that time consuming either. I can understand being busy, but you could get in 20 posts in less than an hour. There are people here who post 20 times in just a few minutes.

**Charliehorse** · 11:46 AM

I'll try! Does this post count? LOL AH ten more to go

Can't you make an exception this time? Pretty please

Part of the reason I can't post much here is because I don't know what the hell I'm talking about with regards to computers so I'm very limited on where I can post here. LOL I can cut and paste like no other though. Is there a forum here for cut and paste experts? I can post away there!

**Charliehorse** · 11:33 AM

#11

I have a suggestion to assure legitimacy of contest without having to post 20 prior posts. Is there any way for you to have the person wanting to post a contest send admin a link to their current employer/website via PM. This would be to verify that it's not spam or some looser internet nut job? Time consuming yes, but may be beneficial to all in the long run.

Okay, now where else can I post.... I'm on the hunt... LOL

**Charliehorse** · 07-30-2008, 12:07 PM

# EUREKA! This makes #20! I'm exhausted. LOL... Have a passed?

**UCDaZ** · 08-05-2008, 07:52 PM

What kind of scams are you designers experiencing on the contest?

**phacker** · 08-06-2008, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UCDaZ

What kind of scams are you designers experiencing on the contest?

I don't know if they are scams but what I see is a certain percentage of designers that never submit within the thread only by PM and the rest of us continue to design our hearts out and post publicly, sticking our necks out while those privately negotiating get the benefit of our mistakes while doing all their business in private. We never get the benefit of the input they receive from the contest holder.

**Kehfera** · 11-10-2008, 10:28 PM

I really think not trusting a brand new member is not good. If I need something right away I don't have the time to poke around. If you want to know if you can trust someone - request a PAYPAL review. I have been in business ONLINE now for more than 6 years and 1 year with PayPal. And now I see that no one wants anything to do with my contest because I am new... this is BOGUS! and I UNDERSTAND. I will just take my business to Keen or some other area. I thought with a contest I would get QUICK results.

Sorry that people have run SCAMS... it does make it hard on all of us. I guess I will go back to my drawing board and do my own logo and banner.

THANKS for everyone's help.

-Kehf

**serandfae** · 01-08-2009, 04:11 PM

I wonder what suggestions members here may have toward making the soon-to-come contests setup a reality? In its current state, I'm sorry to say that many good designers would be wise to look elsewhere.

One suggestion would be to make prizes guaranteed, that is, to have the funds held by WT, guaranteeing that a winner will be chosen. That in and of itself would eliminate some of the scam artists who have been abusing this forum, holding contests and abandoning them, and likely stealing content.

Other suggestions?

tim

**serandfae** · 01-08-2009, 09:32 PM

(Note: I probably should have put this in the sticky on improving contests, so mods, if you feel this should be merged with it I will understand.)

A rule that needs to be addressed is the use of clip art. Most design contests forbid it, for good reason. In most cases, it's copyright infringement to use it, and at the least it's unethical. But there's another good reason to ban it:

Any good designer will tell you that most clients do not think visually, and trying to communicate visual concepts is like trying to introduce someone to a good Merlot who has never imbibed anything but Boone's Farm. Generally I'd send down the road potential clients who think they can get the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel on a Wal-Mart budget, and they typically opt for the ones who bought a clip art CD and a copy of PS Elements, thinking themselves designers when they can't draw a stick person.

Be that as it may, such things should not be allowed here; WT is better than that. We should be educating both buyers and designers in the right way to do things. If you didn't originate it, don't use it, clip art included. Period. If you doubt the originality of a work, don't buy it, or you may be held liable, with work in hand you paid for but can't use.

tim

**zman** · 01-09-2009, 07:34 PM

Honestly, I would LOVE to see a pre-payment system be put in place. As a contest holder, it would make my life a lot easier (I accidentally came back and had a late payment on my last contest).

I like the direction this is going in.

**serandfae** · 01-11-2009, 11:25 AM

Another suggestion: Set the subforums up to be one for prizes from $199-$51 and for prizes $50 and under. That would mean the main forum would be for $200 and up. The reason for that is so contest holders get an idea what designs are worth and what kind of work they are going to get by what forum they post a contest in.

It also might not be a bad idea to have a sticky on tips for contest holders. For instance, telling CHs to be specific with their requests, or that the more feedback given the better results they will receive, might not be a bad idea.

tim

**andrei155** · 01-11-2009, 12:53 PM

I'm thinking that we introduce a minimum amount of prize money for certain types of designs.

For example, the CH would have a drop down menu filled with designs to choose from. Based on what he chooses, the Prize amount would automatically change. At that point, he would only be able to increase it, and never decrease.

Then, we can have like an "I'm Cheap" forum - with no minimal requirement.

**serandfae** · 01-12-2009, 07:26 AM

I've been searching through the multiple pages of the how to improve contests sticky thread, and from the beginning most of these suggestions have been made, notably the one on prepayment/escrow.

The one about set rates had also been made. Stephanie said the WT staff could never agree about rates. However, I'd say that a calculator of some sort, available to both CHs and participants, would be feasible and of great worth to both: It would help CHs in setting prizes and potential participants decide if they want to enter.

Raising the dollar value rates in the names of the forums is one way of sending a signal to potential CHs that they need to raise the bar. Personally, I wouldn't and haven't participated in any of the $20 and under, but I think that $50 and under really belongs in that category.

Finally (for now at least

), something really needs to be done about this recent rash of iTrader rating abuse. Seems nothing has been done about the negative ratings a certain CH gave (admittedly by him as retribution) when he changed his account to hide his previous neg rating and several members called him out about his shady practices. Some sort of grievance system? Yes, I know you can PM a mod, but perhaps a board of regulars of some sort?

tim

**AD7863** · 01-12-2009, 07:41 AM

Maybe like a built in watermarking system or something so if somone forgets to watermark their images it automatially watermarks it and when the person who started the contest decides which one wins he pays the designer and he can take the images. All the other images are like deleted or kept watermarked. Not sure about this but it could be an idea.

**Andy Pugh** · 01-12-2009, 01:46 PM

Hi,
I would agree with the escrow idea in theory, however, it would need to include an option for the CH to pull out if he wasn't happy with any of the designs, which can of course happen... our designs can't be everyones cup of tea!

I also agree with the idea of a pricing structure, on occasions CH's that are paying $100 for a logo are getting the same as a CH that is paying $40 for their logo, a saving of $60 in return for a couple of jibes about being cheap, but a lot of us still enter (guilty!)

I wouldn't be opposed to a pricing structure of $80 for a well thought out logo/brand..

I disagree with overuse of watermarking, It would put me off to be honest if I was a purchaser, a CH can't use the logo on a reputable registered business without a letter of approval and the passing of copyrights, I think we can spot an unreputable contest holder when we see them....

Thanks,
Andy

**angele803** · 01-12-2009, 01:56 PM

I am not sure where we are with a new contest system. A while back, there were plans to overhaul the whole section and make it great and wonderful. Since the forum merge, however, I haven't heard any more on where this stands. I will get with the other mods and admins and see if I can find out any info. In the meantime, feel free to keep posting your ideas and suggestions. I think everything has been discussed before in the sticky thread, but will leave this one un-merged for a few days to get some updated ideas from new members who might be frightened of the size of the sticky.

Serandfae, I am working on repairing the iTrader thrashing that went on with that recent contest.