hav u ppl ever noticed that for every 1 line of code u need an additional 20 lines to get it to display rite in internet explorer? I sure have.

I definatly need some help here.

here is my site im refering to:
http://convandesign.com/TCEA/index.htm

Ok in firefox, opera, etc it looks perfect. But in ie, the scrollbar "jumps". Does anyone know why? My css files can be found at:
http://convandesign.com/TCEA/iCSS/screen.css - thats the main stylesheet for the basic layout.
http://convandesign.com/TCEA/iCSS/navigation.css - thats the stylesheet for the menu at the top
http://convandesign.com/TCEA/iCSS/style.css - as u can tell my css is a lil un-organized and this is some more style mainly for the menu at the top..

ive been workin on getting organized but i havnt see any problems in the style.css or the navigation.css pages that would cause this problem.

the one other css page i hav only IE6 sees- http://convandesign.com/TCEA/CSS/fix.css

fix it?

This is just a guess, but I think it might be the overflow:hidden on the top_bars. I can'tgive you a good reason why. It's more a hunch than anythng else.

And yes the more I develop websites, particularly using css and standard compliant code the more I find myself frustrated with IE. The only reason I ever open it anymore is to test sites.

As if tabbed browsing wasn't enough I've added so many extensions to Firefox that aid in development. I have a hard time working without them.

Yes same here. And by the way it isnt the overflow: hidden in the css..i cant figure out why it does this. See i currently have the top_bars in a fixed position so it stays at the top, but for me to do that I have to "fix" it for IE, which when I get the links at the top to stay at a fixed position it does that wierd scrollbar thing. Go figure. Oh well theres another way I can achieve the same effect it just doest work as good. But if anyone else can figure out why it does this please help.

hav u ppl ever noticed that for every 1 line of code u need an additional 20 lines to get it to display rite in internet explorer? I sure have.

No. In my fairly complex CSS layout, I only used 6 extra lines of CSS to make it work in IE5, IE6, Oprea and Firefox + others I havn't tested it in.

You can't call a peice of software crap just because your code doesn't work in it.

When you get a bit more experienced, you learn how CSS works and best practices in order to obtain a given result, and what tends to work across browsers and what doesn't. At that stage, tiny little browser differences won't bug you.

Well I'm the first to admit when I'm wrong or simply being unfair.

Minaki is actually right and while I'm still not a fan of IE it's not really as bad as I've made it out to seem. For my site I have about 50 lines of css (just a guess) and I only needed to add about 5 or 6 lines specific for IE. I think most were hack to make IE understand min-hright and min-width. Essesntially it was 1 or 2 lines of css applied with slight differences to a few divs.

I do prefer using Firefox especially with the developer extensions. The most useful is Chris Pedrick's web developer toolbar. if you develop sites in Firefox it will make your life much easier. I've added similar toolbars to IE, but they lack some of the features with the Firefox extenstion.

Again Minaki really is right. A lot more often the frustration we feel with IE and other browswers comes just as much from our own lack of best practices than it does with the browsers themselves.

In fact there are even times I've found something to work exactly like I expected in IE only to have it completely break my layout in Firefox and Opera.


I hope I will be fogiven for coming down so hard on IE.

Ok first of all I wasn’t being serious about 20 lines of code. There’s a little thing called sarcasm. And all though I admit I'm not the most experienced code writer there is, I'm only 14 and trying very hard at it. Over my 3-4 years of experience I have noticed however that I.E. refuses to recognize a lot of terms suggested by W3C, making it harder to do some simple things, such as min-height min-width, etc. But on the other hand firefox and opera has its drawbacks as well. I do admit that IE may not be crap, but as you take the general opinion of the public that have used both IE and other browsers, they will agree that firefox and opera is better then IE in more ways then one.
Also you said that once I become more experienced that I will not notice slight differences between browsers. Well quite actually, I don't. And this problem I was having was not a slight problem to say the least. If you have any potential in web design you would have noticed that right off the bat. So instead of belittleing a 14-year-old's (or any body else’s') ability at coding, you might want to take a good look at the problem they are having and keep in mind that they might be someone that knows less than you do, and maybe see if you can provide some help to answer the questions, b/c that is what this forum site is for, not critiquing other peoples instability with writing code or what they say.

not critiquing other peoples instability with writing code or what they say.

If you actually read my post you'd see that I wasn't critiquing anything about your ability or code etc, not was I "belittleing your (or any body else’s') ability at coding". I was in fact just giving you advice taht you can't call a peice of software that happens to be used by millions of users and developed by the top software company in the world crap just cos you can't get your layout to work in it. It's not productive, it won't help, and if you told a client or employer that you couldn't get their design to work in IE "because it's crap" then they would most likely fire you.
That's my advice anyway, take it or leave it, but please don't get shirty at me for giving it to you.

but as you take the general opinion of the public that have used both IE and other browsers, they will agree that firefox and opera is better then IE in more ways then one.

The only people I know that use firefox out of choice do so because of fashion, I even asked them why they think it's better but they didn't seem to know. The people who I know who use IE wouldn't touch Firefox with a 50 foot pole.

Can we get back on topic please, the IE/Firefox war has been done to death....