Originally Posted by Michel Samuel

** We are Microsoft **
We don't have to be right or within legal parameters.
We have over 50 Billion dollars and a team of lawyers/advocats.
AND YOU have no where near the resources to fight us.
By defacto... we push the issue and we will win in one manner or another.

There's a phrase for this. I think it's called "Power Hungry". Lots of money = Lots of power. (since lots of money buys lots of good lawyers who can bend the laws of..well..the law!).
It's not on, and I don't agree with it 110%.

Originally Posted by highanddry

No no I wasn't justifying it at all. I recognize thats it is in a moral gray area at the very best,

Nothing gray about it. It is piracy and stealing.

The person or company that creates and owns the product sets the terms of sale. You are free to purchase it or not.

Nothing gray about it. It is piracy and stealing.

Ooo very definitive. Apparently I'm free to download it or not as well, which supports my budget better.

Originally Posted by colbyt

Nothing gray about it. It is piracy and stealing.

The person or company that creates and owns the product sets the terms of sale. You are free to purchase it or not.

It's not exactly like that....
In law you either deliver clear title to the purchaser or you don't.

If you have "Clear title" you are free to do pretty much anything you like. Including copy it, break it, give it to friends, etc.
(As long as you don't directly financially profit from the product at the expense of another)

There are many factors of law concerning microsoft and all software companies "Terms of service."

1) Process of sale and implied expectation. (Overlaps into estopple)
2) The meeting of the minds concept.

If you purchase a copy of Microsoft XP from your local, Best-buy/Future-shop/ASDA/Carefour/etc.

By the nature of the retail operation they are implying that once you have
purchased the product you have clear ownership. This is an accepted
establish fact of the retail operations. The purchaser has every right to
believe that he is being given "Clear Title"
This is a fact of law upheld in most western society courts for well over 100 years.

To maintain a "cloud on title" Microsoft has to directly sell the product to you.
Or have a duly appointed representative (agent) that has made it clear the conditions
that go with the acceptance of the product.
(Note: By legal definition this now stops being a "sale" and becomes a contractual agreement)

"A meeting of the minds" must occur.
In such that each party is in agreement with the "Terms of the contract"

As in most modern day contracts it must be between
1) Legal adults.
2)Adults of resonable intelligence that are aware of the contractual implications.
3) This has to be done in writting !!! or somehow witnessed to hold validty in court.

Otherwise it is NOT legally enforceble.

Clicking on a pop-up that says, "I agree" is not a legal contract.
The person clicking on it can be a child, mentally handicapped, or my
pet cat stepped on keyboard when I was in the bathroom.

Even if a judge was pre-disposed to toward Microsoft... It is microsoft
that must prove who clicked on the "I accept" button.

------
Lastly...
You can NOT dictate further terms AFTER a purchase has been made.

-----
Microsoft once sent me a letter when they found out we installed a copy of Win2000 on all our machines in our office.
They threaten all kinds of legal action. We ignored it and nothing came of it. We had our "retail" reciept.

It's not exactly like that....
In law you either deliver clear title to the purchaser or you don't.

Very well thought out out and logically presented. A really good aurgument.

Now if you want to be the poster boy for this cause that is fine. I bet MS can afford more lawyers for a longer time period than you can.

In your particular case as posted above all you were doing was replacing your mis-placed copy of software you most likely purchased at one time. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. People who never buy software are stealing it.

Originally Posted by colbyt

Very well thought out out and logically presented. A really good aurgument.

Now if you want to be the poster boy for this cause that is fine. I bet MS can afford more lawyers for a longer time period than you can.

In your particular case as posted above all you were doing was replacing your mis-placed copy of software you most likely purchased at one time. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. People who never buy software are stealing it.

Nothing thought out about it...
This is a simple fact of law. I'm a little of the bit neurotic about legal things.
And as a photographer by trade, who owns a company with several employees.
I have my own lawyers on retention.

If Microsoft sued me...
I wouldn't talk, negotiate or anything to that effect. Because that's how this
game is played. They are going to try and cloud the issue and try and wear me
down. Eating up my resources and increasing my bills. I'll wait until my day in
court.

As for not buying the product...
I don't ilegally download. I've started buying from the retail store shelf.
And if I want to install it on every machine in my office, home, car and bother-in-law's
house. I'm going to do it and they can stuff their license and terms of agreement
in their rear-ends.

I paid for it... My right to do what I want with it.

And I will do the same, but without the payment part. I do not equate this the same as taking something from a person who will feel the loss. I am talking about a "crime" where files have already been reproduced and are being publically shared. I do not mind adding to the "problem" and moreover I really respect people who create authentic freeware and shareware.

I do not equate this the same as taking something from a person who will feel the loss

But, regardless of the enterprise, you are.
You know steam, for example ?
There are a lot of small games available there, for a really small account of cash, right ?


Well, I've read, but don't remember where that most of them are not done by big companies, but small 2/3 persons company, and they are released through the network of a publisher.

The publisher is the only entity you deal with.
It can be EA, Valve, or I don't know what else.

The problem, for those small companies, are that they need cash to develop their games, and this cash is often lent by the distributor who acquire an exclusivity on the title developed.
After the launch of the game, the distributor will take back his investment, and at least in full, before the developer starts to earn 1 cent from his work.

The problem is, that on such a low price, the distributor needs so sells tons of this game for it to begin making money.
In the article I've read, the programmer told that the first 750'000 copy won't be giving him any money.

After that limit, he will gain money.
But the problem was that a cracked version of his game have been publied on p2p network, and was really appreciated.
As the steam install and update was avoided by the pirated versions, he had a lot of support request coming from peoples who did not buyed his game. I believe around 85% of his time dedicated to support was going on hacked version support (well, at least before he realized that the peoples who kept asking support had a pirated version).

That situation put so much pressure on his enterprise, that he had to fire the 2 other peoples working for him.

So when you says something like

I don't pay for that because they can afford it

you are as wrong as you can be.

And as a developer myself, I can only disapprove.
Strongly....

You don't want to pay for it, then use an free alternative.
There are plenty, of high quality, for almost anything.

And no, you don't need photoshop to remove red-eyes on your hollidays pictures.
No, you don't need Adobe premiere to add effects on your kids videos.
No, you don't need office to type a letter or read the last powerpoint joke your friend sent you.
No, you don't need "windows vista premium enterprise edition fully featured" bull****ware to play mineseeper.
No, you don't need dreamweaver to create a web site.

Well, I've read, but don't remember where that most of them are not done by big companies, but small 2/3 persons company, and they are released through the network of a publisher.

I would like to see some evidence of that. I think if anything is offered on the steam platform it is in the spot light.

This is a tough position for me, because my "argument" if thats what it is, is philosphically very weak. I do feel like once a file has been compromised those who download it are a problem, but the major problem are those who make the files avaliable and cracked. I do "need" my programs, but they are marked up too high and its easier for me to contribute to a problem then be totally moral in something like this. Also I wouldn't be using them otherwise, and I do a lot of spreading the word in a positive way about these products that I think benefits the companies to some extent. I'm all over the place on this. What it comes down to is, I take drinks from the fast food places if they are in an open spout, I take software from torrents if they are in an openly shared format, but I wouldn't take a kids bike or someones ipod. This may not be morally sound, but I might mature more someday.

I have to put my two cents into this one. I made a blog post about this about a month ago. I am just going to repost the first paragraph of the blog. I think it is a lovely analogy.


July 24th, 2007 Last night I heard a knock on my door. My neighbor was out of sugar, and asked if she could borrow a cup for her morning coffee. I invited her into the kitchen and pulled the bag of sugar out of the cabinet. As I began to pour the sugar into her bowl, the bag closed by itself and would not open. A light flashed on the bag stating that the sugar was only to be used in my household, by my hands, only into my cup, and that it is “unlawful to distribute” the sugar in any manner other than stated.
Sound a bit far-fetched? It is…for sugar.

I think the software industry has taken things a bit too far.

Please, keep in mind that I'm a native French speaker. I consider myself fluent enough to say many things in English, but there are some terms that I might translate wrong from French to English, especially when I hit terms like "felony".
I don't want to start a flame war, but I think there are some serious things that need to be said, and I might say them the wrong way.
I keep my French/English translator at hand, but it don't mean I'll get everything right.

I do feel like once a file has been compromised those who download it are a problem, but the major problem are those who make the files avaliable and cracked.

True, but this can be extended to many other subjects...
Drugs, weapons, any case of slavery, the list could be long.

It's not the fact that there is a "provider" that's make the use of it a less serious felony (or offense, or maybe violation, I'm not sure of that term...)
Are you sure that the file would not be distributed if there was not apublic for it ?
Don't you think that they would be less peoples addicted to drugs, if they where harder to get ?
[ Here, in Switzerland, consumption of drugs is not an offense, but growing it or selling it is ]

Don't you think less peoples would die from "lost bullets" (direct translation of French here, a bullet fired from an arm, but that don't go to it's target) if weapons where more regulated, and ammunition not as easy as now to get ?
[ Again, here, in Switzerland, we have a militia army. I go 3 weeks every 2 years doing military service, and even as I'm part of the first emergency help corpse, I must take my gun everytime. Many mens between 18 and 35 have a fully automatic rifle, with 50 bullets at home "in case of war". Having a baby girl 3 years old is somewhat of a concern, with this thing at home. Even when it's splitted in 3 parts for security.
But there are many many crimes here committed with those guns, and it took years for the government to just consider that they might decide to think about not letting army mens having ammo at home. Go tell... And don't start me about "personal security" and "right to defend yourself", having a gun at home is the last way to be secure at home. I did sport shooting, and was a regional champ at 18, and I know how to handle a weapon, but most of the peoples I saw in firing alley don't know. They are just having fun, and putting everyone in danger. How could that be different in the streets / privacy of their home ?]

I know, I'm going away of the main subject, but I truly think that there is an analogy between those.
Just to close this post, when I stated in my last post that you didn't need office, dreamweaver or photoshop, I was primarily stating that in an personal use, not in an office.

What goes in an office is often out of the hand of a single employee (but I remember that request from a series of employee to ditch IE in favor of firefox had them success in that, in an enterprise I worked with some times ago...), and if that was obvious to me when I wrote the post, it's way less obvious now that I re-read it.

There I go. Back to some lighter subject now.

"cOrpse" hehe -----> 'corps.'

"corpse" is a dead body.

In terms of weapons, I think thats a different scenario. I wouldn't purchase illegal weapons, or any weapons for that matter. In terms of drugs... If pot wasn't made avaliable, I wouldn't smoke it. Which leads me to stipulate that when there is a need for something and an audience for it, then there will be someone to provide it. We will see if products become harder to crack and harder to distribute and if that makes more people purchase them..Autres temps, autres moeurs.

Here is an answer to work
If you have a cd burning program that can do ISO files
use this site it has ISO files you can download of different boot disk
http://www.allbootdisks.com/download/iso.html
that way you can get a boot CD for example the windows 98 SE boot disk is called Win98SE_bootdisk.iso on there list I hope that will help you and If you are glad I gave you that information could you please give me some talkupation please? If you don't know how to burn an ISO look in google

Im also one of these people whom download.

Im a bit supporter of freeware/shareware, and belive strongly in my view of if they can do it free why cant you? or at least at a price which everyone could afford. i belive the ONLY reason for instance Windows is so much more popular than linux. is because computers are sold with it. where as if linux was sold as a option with shop brought computers tnhe Linux users Would go up amazingly and so would the product because more people could contribute.

and it seems to me taht the free software the users has a much closer connection to the authors, as in many cases they can email them!

Also on about microsoft windows "Lease" if as some one has said you dont actually buy the softwrae you "lease" it then why should the user pay for support? surly its the leasers job to keep the software functioning and running smoothly.

And also why is it you do not then also have the right to use the latest version of their product. as i belive with many leases you get the newer product once the old ones broken/warn out

Dell have announced they're going to start selling PCs with Linux on, so that's good news for you Dan

It was on earlier this year:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6506027.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6610901.stm

PageRank has a lot of flaws, but for sites like the BBC who are above-board (well everyone believes they are, except Scientologists), PageRank can be a good indicator about what people are linking to - look at the PR of the first link!

yat u seen that scientology thign before its just like erm you following them thats what it is when you go everywhere soemone else does :P

anyway, yea thats good, but i think where its dell it still wont be in shops on display if you get me so normal joe blogs when he walks into PC world looking for something to check his emal will STILL see a bunch of Windows PCs

i think the only really way for linux to be able to get alot more of the market is to support windows programs.

which wil probally never happen.

funny thing is im not a linux user, i want to install SUSE because my breif encounter with ubuntu made me hate it. but everytime i try to install i get some error :?