Ok,

Not wanting to get into the politics of the matter.
But I purchased a new computer with vista pre-installed.

Sadly I have snapped and lost it with this operating system.

Anyone know where I can get a cheap retail copy of XP ?

It may not be possible to downgrade. Alot of the newer machines, probably purposly, do not support xp. That and Microsoft pulled all copies of XP from shelves.

What problems are you having with Vista ? I've heard and read of so many .. no way I'm moving to Vista by choice any time in the forseeable future !

Actually, you can get the 64-bit version of XP, which does support the newer processors and more RAM (among other things).

The problem, and this comes from someone that owns a copy, is that a number of programs don't offer XP64 support.

I don't understand why sooo many people despise Vista. IMHO it runs a lot smoother than XP, I haven't gotten a single BSOD. Yes it requires better hardware, but that is perfect excuse to upgrade or get a new comp ;P.

I have a feeling that people fear change. BE ADVENTUROUS. If you dont want to chance your work machine put it on a little cheapy box (you can buy one for like 300). Vista has so many nice things to offer and it sad that people don't want to experience them because they are afraid (of what other people have told them).


P.S. I am in a no way a Microsoft advocate, I hate Microsoft (especially IE) with a passion. I much perfer Mac, but unfortunately we live in a Windows world.

You really don't know, Mark? I'll tell you...and I've configured multiple systems with both Vista and XP.

Time it takes to configure an XP system properly...about 2 hours, including wait time.
Time it takes to configure a Vista system...about 4 hours, including wait time, and you're still not quite sure you've got it.

The graphic interface is a joke, Vista requires 1GB of RAM to run properly, the "Cancel/Allow" thing is freakin' ANNOYING, Office has to be upgraded to 2003 (minimum) to work with Vista, it doesn't run well on most laptops for sale in Canada (even if you optimize the system for best performance and strip it to a Windows 2000-esque interface), and it offers nothing of any real use that its predecessors didn't.

It seems to be reasonably stable, but so is XP if you configure it properly and don't do anything stupid with it...BSODs in XP are generally either the result of hardware issues or human error. I haven't seen anything in the 70-someodd XP machines I'm responsible for that would indicate otherwise.

I wouldn't say I despise Vista, but I certainly don't like it. It offers nothing new that is of any use...it's just "prettier", and that's in the eye of the beholder. And I don't fear change, either...in fact, I've been known to initiate a bit of change from time to time.

I'm not sure what you formed your opinion on, Mark, but in my case at least it's not even close to true. I dislike Vista because I've configured systems with it and it's a pain in the ***.

Originally Posted by LadynRed

What problems are you having with Vista ? I've heard and read of so many .. no way I'm moving to Vista by choice any time in the forseeable future !

The bulk of my stuff is video editing and adobe premier is just having a mother of a time under the Vista enviroment. Random errors, mis-interpretation of commands, etc.

All I get from tech services is one bunch of excuses after another from dweebs reading out of manuals. First it was "you need to learn the application." (I been using this app for 4 years and last year I taught a class in it.) Then it was, "you need to upgrade your version of premiere." Ok fine my adobe app is 4 years old but I shouldn't have to spend a fortune to upgrade my apps just because I upgrade my operating system. (Sorry but many of my apps require I purchase any "patch")

As for the other apps..
I hate to say it but it is actually "hanging" on a regular basis. And hitting the old ctrl-alt-delete to call up my progs and shut them down won't load.
(So it is a true hang... like my old 486 under Windows 3.11)


The configure-abilty is lost too. Despite being logged in as an admin I am constantly having to fight with the machine for access permission to this or that.

I'm sorry but I think that Vista is another Millenium.

---------
Now I've got to find a copy of XP and probably buy a new hard drive for the install. (Yes I know I can re-format/fdisk/etc. I just like start clean from scratch)

Just like most geekish people in the world I very strongly dislike Microsoft (yet still use them ). The problem not only with Vista but all Microsoft products is Microsoft is putting their focus in the wrong areas. Mostly stability. You find they clog a bunch of features just to say they have them and don't spend enough time working on them to make them stable and efficient. By efficient I mean crashes, and does what it is supposed to without ****ing.
I always thought this was something that was common with computers but today I did my first Linux dual boot install (Why it took me this long? Not a clue. Just never really crossed my mind) and was amazed at the stability differences. I really suggest getting a Linux or XP dual boot with your Vista this way you still have a way of backing out. Just use a partition manager such as Partition Magic and allocate it to your Linux or XP partition.
But really.. We should all stop wining about it and just not use it! Most people buy Vista because it looks cool well take a look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC5uEe5OzNQ. You'll see the Linux Ubunta Beryl outdoes XP aesthetically and in efficiency. You do that fancy box trick in Windows you'll die in a few seconds. Well.. That's my input.

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

The graphic interface is a joke, Vista requires 1GB of RAM to run properly, the "Cancel/Allow" thing is freakin' ANNOYING, Office has to be upgraded to 2003 (minimum) to work with Vista, it doesn't run well on most laptops for sale in Canada (even if you optimize the system for best performance and strip it to a Windows 2000-esque interface), and it offers nothing of any real use that its predecessors didn't.

The Cancel/Allow can very easily to be turned off, but think of the why it helps the computer novice. Office being upgraded to 2003 is probably a good thing. While 2000 was a good version, it does have several flaws that have been fixed in 2003+ (now granted each version brings its own flaws). I do not know what the laptops like up in Canada, but I know that here in the US any good laptop comes with an Intel Core 2 Duo 5500 or higher or an AMD Turion x2 50 or better with a minimum gig of ram. Besides the fact that the majority of them do not have a dedicated gfx, tell me what is bad about that?

So you don't need built in encryption, easy networking, simplified and expanded file and print sharing and better group policy and account controls?

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

It seems to be reasonably stable, but so is XP if you configure it properly and don't do anything stupid with it...BSODs in XP are generally either the result of hardware issues or human error. I haven't seen anything in the 70-someodd XP machines I'm responsible for that would indicate otherwise.

Ok, I concede on that point

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

It offers nothing new that is of any use...it's just "prettier", and that's in the eye of the beholder.

See about the encryption, easy...

Originally Posted by ADAM Web Design

I'm not sure what you formed your opinion on, Mark, but in my case at least it's not even close to true. I dislike Vista because I've configured systems with it and it's a pain in the ***.

I have formed my opinion by using Vista everyday after using xp (and every other incarnation of windows for that matter) for years before. I also have troubleshooted windows and have developed applications for windows for years. So you can say that I know the ins and the outs of the os. Now I have never installed a release version of vista from scratch (it came preloaded on my laptop), but I have talked to those who have and they do agree that configuring it can take a little bit longer.

But my general frustration is not with power-users (or companies, because I know that they have time lines for these things), but with those people that refuse to upgrade their 10 year old Win 98 computer because they hear that Windows Vista is horrible.

Maybe a switch to a more advanced operating system altogether

Kubuntu

I got an XP package (yah)
Now despite best efforts I can't toast the vista system and load XP

_______
Update:
Reformatted the drive. BUT when I put in the XP disc, it gives me this:

Stop: c0000221 Unknown Hard Error
\SystemRoot\system32\ntdll.dll

So you don't need built in encryption, easy networking, simplified and expanded file and print sharing and better group policy and account controls?

The networking in 2000 and XP is about as easy as it gets, and file and print sharing is about a 2-to-5-minute task. I also never really had a problem with group policy and account controls from within XP (2000 was a bit of a mess, but I could always configure XP to do what I wanted to.)

I haven't messed with any of the built-in encryption stuff myself (although I'll have to at some point when I get my new laptop this week), and I'm not going to comment on that, other than to say that even if this were true, it doesn't make up for the other inefficiencies.

The thing with the Cancel/Allow is that the computer novice can easily be trained not to go into certain areas in the first place. I've never had a problem saying "if you get in over your head, call me and I'll straighten it out", and people listen to that. If they don't, the problem usually is with the IT personnel not being able to communicate.

The laptop specs are about the same here for a new one as the ones you've mentioned, and I've had the "privilege" of configuring not one, but two Vista laptops from Toshiba. It took over 45 minutes just to run the unattended base installation (despite it being "preloaded") so that I could even get it to the point where I could remove all the additional crap (NIS, Picasa, etc.) and strip it down so that it would run "sort of okay."

What you're also missing with the laptop scenario is that most of the laptops come with a 5400 RPM hard drive, which in turn creates a bottleneck that, on an operating system like Vista, can't be afforded. There's nothing like hearing a hard drive struggle to keep up with a relatively simple install request.

Michel nailed it when he said Vista is Millenium Part II. It's an awful operating system and it will be a couple of years before they straighten it out.

got my answer why all of my video editing stuff is buggy under Vista.

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...ista_cost.html

Vista shuts down any piece of media hardware that it considers, "unsecured."

and an update...
Toasted the partition and reformated.

It ignores the XP boot disk and demands I re-insert the vista disk.

It is starting to look like I will have to buy a new drive.

--------
Update:

It comes down to this.
You have to remove the partition and it won't be easy. Vista does something to the MBR and even using a win98 boot disk won't necessarily do the job.

I recomend getting a copy of linux's slate and toasting everything on the drive.
After that, run the XP install cd and don't be surprised if you have to repair the MBR before the install will work.

The big problems with vista are...

All sound, video, etc are shut down on anything that is H.D capable.
This means that on video resolutions of greater than 800 by 600 you may not get anything displayed (or greatly flawed) if for some reason vista things the hardware or software is "unsecured."

Second the metabyte information storage. This just is the stuff that is encoded with video, photos, mp3s etc. (And even software programs) Vista is constantly reading this information and it just hogs your resources to hell. It can be a useful tool but....

Originally Posted by Michel Samuel

got my answer why all of my video editing stuff is buggy under Vista.

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html

Vista shuts down any piece of media hardware that it considers, "unsecured."

and an update...
Toasted the partition and reformated.

It ignores the XP boot disk and demands I re-insert the vista disk.

It is starting to look like I will have to buy a new drive.

--------
Update:

It comes down to this.
You have to remove the partition and it won't be easy. Vista does something to the MBR and even using a win98 boot disk won't necessarily do the job.

I recomend getting a copy of linux's slate and toasting everything on the drive.
After that, run the XP install cd and don't be surprised if you have to repair the MBR before the install will work.

The big problems with vista are...

All sound, video, etc are shut down on anything that is H.D capable.
This means that on video resolutions of greater than 800 by 600 you may not get anything displayed (or greatly flawed) if for some reason vista things the hardware or software is "unsecured."

Second the metabyte information storage. This just is the stuff that is encoded with video, photos, mp3s etc. (And even software programs) Vista is constantly reading this information and it just hogs your resources to hell. It can be a useful tool but....

I've heard of all that so many times it's getting old. It's sad Microsoft doesn't allow re-installing XP. I agree with the guy on Kubuntu. Although it isn't more powerful or standard it's more stable. If you're a tech get Debian, Fedora, or any OS in the Ubuntu family and use it as much as possible. Only using XP for programs that doesn't support Linux or Wine can't transfer over. Did I mention you'll never get a virus a day in your life with Linux so all those annoying security messages (Are you sure you want to click OK? Are you sure you want to click the OK button to click OK? Are you sure you want to click the OK button to click the OK button that clicks the OK button?) never even occur.
Help make a Linux OS a bit more popular by using it!

http://www.ubuntu.com/
http://www.debian.com/
http://www.fedoraproject.org/
http://www.linux.org/
http://www.redhat.com/
http://www.mac.com