Originally Posted by Minaki

Actually, with the last highly critical hole, they released a fix earlier than the usual schedule for updates.
The reason they do that is so the patches can be properly tested and quality assured, so they don't realease patches that cause more problems than they solve.
They also release a full acknowledgement of the problem, as well as details of mitigating factors and temporary workarounds.

while a non-profit organasation can do better?

vangogh, I'm not debating here which is the better browser (IE wins that argument hands down heh) What I'm getting at is that, as you said, IE is not a bad browser and Microsoft has done a great job with it, and it's stupid to say otherwise if you don't know the facts and are just following the 'Microsoft Sucks' fashion. (I've never been one to follow fashion... I value my individuality and ability to form my own oppinions.) I've had this discussion with all sorts of Microsoft haters, both on W-T and off. None of the people I speak to ever seem to come up with a valid, bonafied reason as to why, exactly, Microsoft sucks so much... I mean, it doesn't make sense. Microsoft is undisputably the biggest software house in the world, and Microsoft has made Mr. Gates the richest man in the world for a while. Somehow I don't think they got where they are now by making bad software! People have always had a choice, and they chose Microsoft.

Originally Posted by Minaki

it's stupid to say otherwise if you don't know the facts and are just following the 'Microsoft Sucks' fashion. (I've never been one to follow fashion... I value my individuality and ability to form my own oppinions.)

Unfortunately there are many many out there who are doing exactly this. Either due to missing knowledge and simply following the current mainstream, or because one is biased and favors non-Microsoft technology because of ideology and simply ignoring any technical facts.

Originally Posted by Minaki

I've had this discussion with all sorts of Microsoft haters, both on W-T and off. None of the people I speak to ever seem to come up with a valid, bonafied reason as to why, exactly, Microsoft sucks so much

The classical "me too".

Finally... someone who agrees

Originally Posted by neroux

Unfortunately there are many many out there who are doing exactly this. Either due to missing knowledge and simply following the current mainstream, or because one is biased and favors non-Microsoft technology because of ideology and simply ignoring any technical facts.

because funds have nothing to do with anything. seriously, ms products can be good for some purposes, but they are so ****ing expensife

Originally Posted by neroux

The classical "me too".

dont get me wrong, I dont hate MS, I use there OS for starters (I had the option of that and a mac and I chose windows). I am just saying that IE isnt that great of a browser security or style wise.

however, I will now change that fact, here it is. I will touch on IE mainly

-unsafe, this is a well known fact
-they have their own weird standards. there is a non-profit org called the w3c, they created some standards, good standards. ms will not follow them, making it hard for developers.
-doesnt have half the features of firefox

now on to their products
-they cost a ton
-when you buy their over-priced products, that isnt enough, they do everything they can to make you buy more
-there are free (or very cheap) alternitaves to almost everything they make, most are better IMO
-they dont like non-ms compatibility. if you use them for one, they will try to makesure you use ms for all

that good?

Originally Posted by dan1088352

because funds have nothing to do with anything. seriously, ms products can be good for some purposes, but they are so ****ing expensife

I am sorry, but I dont see what you want to say related to my statement.

Originally Posted by dan1088352

I am just saying that IE isnt that great of a browser security or style wise.

I never said IE is the best browser.

Originally Posted by dan1088352

-unsafe, this is a well known fact

I agree, IE does not have the best reputation in terms of security, but if you look at Firefox' security problems in the last time, they shouldnt be proud either. Admittedly, they fix security related bugs faster than Microsoft, but this is on the other hand due to the more strict QA in a large company compared to a community project. Broken compatibility like in Firefox 1.0.5 will not pass Microsoft's QA.

Originally Posted by dan1088352

-they have their own weird standards. there is a non-profit org called the w3c, they created some standards, good standards. ms will not follow them, making it hard for developers.

To be exact, W3C does not issue standards, but only recommendations. But as I said, IE is not the "best" browser.

Originally Posted by dan1088352

-doesnt have half the features of firefox

Which would be in detail?

Originally Posted by dan1088352

-they cost a ton
-when you buy their over-priced products, that isnt enough, they do everything they can to make you buy more

The price is always a subjective thing - and certainly they try to make you buy more. Each company does that - this is a problem of capitalism, not of Microsoft.

Originally Posted by dan1088352

-there are free (or very cheap) alternitaves to almost everything they make, most are better IMO

You are free to use them.

most of those wherent to you, they where to Minaki's comment on that she has never heard a good arguement against ms

Too bad they haven't released a x64 version yet, ohwell, I guess I will keep waiting.

because funds have nothing to do with anything. seriously, ms products can be good for some purposes, but they are so ****ing expensife

That is because of all those pesky proofreaders making sure their documentation writers use proper grammar and punctuation. I mean come on, those guys get paid a fortune.

I've come to realize that trying to compare IE and Firefox is like comparing apples to oranges. They may have the same purpose but every other aspect of them are very different.

IE - Relatively small development team originally designing an application for the enterprise.
FF - A phenomonaly large development team originally designing for consumption by the general public.

IE - Focus group input
FF - General publics direct input

IE - Designed originally to be run by MS customers on MS platforms
FF - Designed to be run on many platforms by disparate customers

Argue all you want about which one is better but I believe they are too different to make a fair comparison.

the fact that they are both browsers make them comparible.

Originally Posted by dan1088352

most of those wherent to you, they where to Minaki's comment on that she has never heard a good arguement against ms

I would like to get an answer nevertheless.

an answer to what?

Originally Posted by dan1088352

an answer to what?

To the questions

-unsafe, this is a well known fact

I call it media hype. I've never had a single problem using IE, and I use it a lot. All you gotta do is keep it up to date and be vigalant (actually bother to read dialogs and warnings, don't click on adverts, don't surf Pr0n/Cracks/Warez sites) and you'll genrally be OK.

-they have their own weird standards. there is a non-profit org called the w3c, they created some standards, good standards. ms will not follow them, making it hard for developers.

They follow the vast majority of them, and with each new version, they're following more. I wouldn't say hard for developers - if you find it hard to get a site looking the same across browsers, then you're probably not as good a developer as you thought you were. Look at www.inoxia.co.uk - it's a fairly complex CSS layout, and it works in IE5, IE6, Firefox, Oprea and Safari at least. Probably others. Only 6 lines of CSS to fix cross browser issues.

-doesnt have half the features of firefox

Granted, Firefox has a lot of gimmicks, but most of them are just that - gimmicks. I mean, it's a web browser. I don't need it to make the tea - I need it to display web pages.

now on to their products

-they cost a ton

That's because they're *** good, and a lot of work and effort has gone into making them.

-when you buy their over-priced products, that isnt enough, they do everything they can to make you buy more

That's commonly known as 'business'

-there are free (or very cheap) alternitaves to almost everything they make, most are better IMO

The vast majority of these are no good in a business environment. I worked in a company once where the IT Dept. was big on free software, it was forever going wrong and next to impossible to get any decent support on it... In my current job, there's a Linux web server running our site. Nobody dares to touch it, because according to the guy that used to administer it, if you switch it off and back on again, there's a whole host of things you have to do to get the web server up and running again. OK, so some Linux guy might be able to look at it and get it up and running eventually, but in business, that's unacceptable. We've solved that problem by switching to a Windows 2003 Server.

-they dont like non-ms compatibility. if you use them for one, they will try to makesure you use ms for all

For example....?
They're currently making the format of Officee documents XML to improve compatibility.

Originally Posted by Minaki

I call it media hype. I've never had a single problem using IE, and I use it a lot. All you gotta do is keep it up to date and be vigalant (actually bother to read dialogs and warnings, don't click on adverts, don't surf Pr0n/Cracks/Warez sites) and you'll genrally be OK.

not true, IE is unsafe. havent you heard about that JS exploit? all you need to do is cross a page with a crooked designer and you have been gotten.

Originally Posted by Minaki

They follow the vast majority of them, and with each new version, they're following more. I wouldn't say hard for developers - if you find it hard to get a site looking the same across browsers, then you're probably not as good a developer as you thought you were. Look at www.inoxia.co.uk - it's a fairly complex CSS layout, and it works in IE5, IE6, Firefox, Oprea and Safari at least. Probably others. Only 6 lines of CSS to fix cross browser issues.

I have developed sites that didnt display the same in IE as it did in firfox and opera, it was an annoyance.

Originally Posted by Minaki

Granted, Firefox has a lot of gimmicks, but most of them are just that - gimmicks. I mean, it's a web browser. I don't need it to make the tea - I need it to display web pages.

they are not gimmics, they make your browsing nicer and easier, for instance I use adblock, it blocks banner adds quite well.

Originally Posted by Minaki

now on to their products

That's because they're *** good, and a lot of work and effort has gone into making them.

I disagree with that

Originally Posted by Minaki

That's commonly known as 'business'

they are worse then most others that I have used, have you ever seen their boxes? they are stuffed with adds everywhere.

Originally Posted by Minaki

The vast majority of these are no good in a business environment. I worked in a company once where the IT Dept. was big on free software, it was forever going wrong and next to impossible to get any decent support on it... In my current job, there's a Linux web server running our site. Nobody dares to touch it, because according to the guy that used to administer it, if you switch it off and back on again, there's a whole host of things you have to do to get the web server up and running again. OK, so some Linux guy might be able to look at it and get it up and running eventually, but in business, that's unacceptable. We've solved that problem by switching to a Windows 2003 Server.

ms server is one of their few good products, that and office. for instance, I have vc++, I perfer dev-c++ (a free c++ compiler).

lets take windows vista for example, viruses have already been made for it, while there has never been a sucessful virus for a mac.

Originally Posted by Minaki

For example....?
They're currently making the format of Officee documents XML to improve compatibility.

they are getting better at the compatibility stuff, but they are still not too good with it.

Originally Posted by dan1088352

most of those wherent to you, they where to Minaki's comment on that she has never heard a good arguement against ms

I am sorry, but they werent good arguments as you obviously have nothing to counter mine.

I agree. Your arguments are flawed. For example:

there has never been a sucessful virus for a mac.

I take it you've never heard of ANTI, Code252 or CDEF, etc. Macs aren't immune to vuruses. It's just as easy to create a virus for a Mac or Linux as it is for windows. The only reason virus writers target Windows is because it is by far the most widely used OS. The main reasons for writing viruses are either to get attention, or create 'zombie' machines for DDOS attacks, spam, etc. Therefore, why bother targeting an OS that's only used by a small percentage of home users and specialists? The same goes for IE exploits too. Who exploit Firefox or Oprea when the majority are using IE, and the IE user base is more likely to be home users who know less about security. As the Firefox user base has expanded, there have been a number of reports of malware being distributed through Firefox exploits.

Maybe do a little research before your next post, huh?

There has been some good debate, but this thread has been hijacked because of the debate. The purpose of the thread wwas to ask "Are you ready to try IE 7 - Beta? The purpose was not to debate two browsers.

And this is a friendly reminder that we have a zero profanity policy. Please adhere to that. Sometimes, debates make the debators want to use unnecessary adjectives. I know they're unnecessary because the debators have been carrying on a highly intelligent conversation, so the lowly adjectives are not needed.

Another problem is flaming. When you make statements about another person't lack of preparation or intelligence, you may have just started the flame wars (that will not be allowed here).

Sorry to interrupt this thread, but remember, it was about whether you're ready for the new IE version.

Dave