Do you all think there will be new languages coming out reinventing the wheel, or do you all think they will just update the current languages or build new spin-offs off the old ones?

What would you like to see happen in the web programming industry?
Do you think that wysiwyg editors are hurting the true diehard coders out there?

But true diehard coders stick to things like the commandline! They wouldn't be hurt by that stuff.

The new language? In the city of London, for about 2 years I.T. recruiters have seemed to believe (judging only by a handful of conversations I've had, mind) that it's all leading to Java... which I think would be good, since Java's got a lot more than most languages on either side of the fence it sits on... on the one hand scripting languages have proved versatile for web developers but java can provide similar versatility once you get used to the so-called "footprint" - and then on the other hand java works, as does C++ etc, very well when creating standalone apps that work offline.

I'm putting my money (i.e. my time) all into Java.

I think there will always be new languages coming and going. Right now C++ is on its way out and other languages are filling the gap. Personally I expect to see a resurgence of Lisp like languages, due to the huge rise in multiprocessor machines. Lisp and other functional programming languages are inheriantly parallel.

Unless the OOP compilers get a lot smarter when it comes to utilizing more than one processing core I think we are all in for a significant paradigm shift in the future.

Lisp and other functional programming languages are inher(e)ntly parallel.

for my edification could you give some examples of other functional programming languages?

And what does multiprocessor mean, in terms of influencing language choice?

How about Pascal, isn't that one of the original functional languages? I know it was eventually adapted to be object oriented, but I'm not aware of it being used in the mainstream.

Object Pascal is the base language for Delphi

I think the way to start would be in Basic, and QBasic, not VBasic...My point? We need a new start. But this time, why not do it right? After all, there are alot of MS users still out there. Even though I am not much of a windows user anymore, I would still like to keep my understanding of the MS systems, just not as my primary os for the time being.

Reason for this: Unfortunately new computer users who buy a new pc with windows pre-installed still have problems like not enough 'base' memory to run an application, or other similar errors when more than enough memory is allocated for the program to run. That was just an example, but there are many other CARELESS programming examples which are clearly caused by the programming of the Operating System itself.

Originally Posted by witnesstheday

for my edification could you give some examples of other functional programming languages?

And what does multiprocessor mean, in terms of influencing language choice?

Look up lisp and scheme. Functional programming is a paradigm that most people will probably find very strange (pascal btw is not a functional programming language). Here is an implimentation of the factorial function in scheme (a variation of lisp)

  (define (fact n)
    (define (fact2 n m)
      (if (= n 0)
          m
          (fact2 (- n 1) (* m n))))
    (fact2 n 1))

Notice that there is no explicit loop but a recursion instead. Unlike OOP, structured, or imparative langauges there is no real way to define a variable in the sense that you would in c++ or java. Functions can take as input either a list, an atom (an atom is pretty much any primitive type and a list is a list of atoms) or another function. Google it for more info.

Oh and take a look at this:
http://xkcd.com/224/
http://xkcd.com/297/

The thing about functional languages, is that because functions can be evaluated in parallel you are often not restriced to a sequential execution of your program, meaning that more than one processor can work on the program at once. With all of the dual and quad core systems floating around not this is becoming more and more important.

Originally Posted by Brian07002

I think the way to start would be in Basic, and QBasic, not VBasic...My point? We need a new start. But this time, why not do it right? After all, there are alot of MS users still out there. Even though I am not much of a windows user anymore, I would still like to keep my understanding of the MS systems, just not as my primary os for the time being.

Reason for this: Unfortunately new computer users who buy a new pc with windows pre-installed still have problems like not enough 'base' memory to run an application, or other similar errors when more than enough memory is allocated for the program to run. That was just an example, but there are many other CARELESS programming examples which are clearly caused by the programming of the Operating System itself.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that problems in the windows os are caused by problems with VB? Basic was never intended to be a language for large scale applications, and though there may be components of windows that are coded in VB, I would say that those components are non-critical and fairly small.

i'm starting to get it - a functional language is no different to the 'languages' used for programming a 'programmable calculator'?

i do like it. it appeals to me - and the cartoon is very amusing "ostensibly, yes. honestly we hacked most of it together with perl".

I shall google it for more info. cheers... already at lisp.org now. initial perusal suggests i can experiment with it on my linux machine

I think someone told me I'd like lisp a while ago. When I can, I'll get to it! Right now I've just found a den of perl wizards and if I spend enough time there I can definitely finish qualifying to be worth £300 sterling per day for just contract work (once I change my name, of course!)

Originally Posted by witnesstheday

i'm starting to get it - a functional language is no different to the 'languages' used for programming a 'programmable calculator'?

I've never seen a calculator programmed in lisp, but then again the only calculator I've ever needed was a pretty basic scientific calculator (most of the time you're not even allowed to use the graphing ones on tests so whats the point?). Functional is the paradigm just like object oriented is the paradigm of java.

ah tests. no i didn't explain myself correctly. not the actual calculator software but the programming option inside the calculator to program functions - they let you create 1 or 2 functions involving x and y and normal maths functions - even on basic calculators. scientific calculators with graphing capability have so much programming ability that one of my friends programmed a tetris game into it as a sign of scorn of our maths teacher who was a boring and somehow no-good maths teacher ( i ended up taking French and Italian because of him).

I was trying to figure out how he did that. It doesn't seem like JUST functions could create a tetris game - then again maybe? Justin is cool. He's a (medical) doctor now. Not one of the goons to go down. From Japan. He would say, when playing badminton, as he struggled to dodge my devious captures of points, "I'm toying with you, like a beetle toys with its lunch". We went to a school owned by the Mercers company - big rich people - pure babylon.

If you could tell me a bit about functional programming I'd be pretty indebted when I get back and read it - but my plate is getting really full.

Currently I'm trying to prepare some good ad copy (for a bit of a big boycott).

I'll go off and learn lisp. I have unix on my mac and i'm about to start learning to add cpan stuff to it for perl, so while i'm in there playing around i'll also do java, c++ and lisp - but with lisp - maybe you, as a devotee, can help me get my mac to run it... i'll google it when i want it, but my mac's a real nightmare (a proper tardis... always screws around and decides what i can do and not do, where i can and can't go, randomly, although it keeps me lively). I should be okay. if not i'll drop back in and bother you about it.

i find Divine Madness, by madness, is very good with programming.

Functional is the paradigm just like object oriented is the paradigm of java.

The "functional" had me wondering for a while there as well.

By "functional language" you are meaning "a procedural language" I would guess.

The procedural and functional paradigms are completely different. In procedural programming you are just telling the computer the steps it needs to take to get to a desired state, each step resulting in a new state. In functional programming you avoid states all together.

In a functional language when you execute your program you do not move from one line to another until it is complete, the entire logic of a program is embodied in the execution of a single line of code. As strage as it may sound there are no variables and no (or should not be) mutable data. This is only in the pure form, many modern langauges that are function are actually multi-paradigm or non-strict.

I think the next great leap should be a multi threaded browser language with a server side clone.

Originally Posted by NullPointer

The procedural and functional paradigms are completely different. In procedural programming you are just telling the computer the steps it needs to take to get to a desired state, each step resulting in a new state. In functional programming you avoid states all together.

In a functional language when you execute your program you do not move from one line to another until it is complete, the entire logic of a program is embodied in the execution of a single line of code. As strage as it may sound there are no variables and no (or should not be) mutable data. This is only in the pure form, many modern langauges that are function are actually multi-paradigm or non-strict.

then in principle the 2 "function" options on my sci-calc definitely are the same as a functional language.

and maybe the graphical calculator really does use a functional language like lisp!

Originally Posted by Sleeping Troll

I think the next great leap should be a multi threaded browser language with a server side clone.

But are you a civil servant? Just kidding - just that you sound like Humphrey Appleby. I don't know what a multi threaded browser language is, and I've never heard of a programming object called a clone, but I'm new.

Is it... (a) wit, (b) something microsoft (c) misc alien technology?

I'm curious though. If it isn't a joke, what IS a "multi threaded" anything? and also - what is a "browser language"? Like html and xml? I spend too much time inside abstract nutshells, or is it kernels. Browser technology IS very alien to me. I'll be buggered if I can ever get firefox to work properly. And IE - it doesn't even BROWSE!! call it a browser?!!

Where is Tripy when we need him? Isn't Python a multi-threaded Object-Oriented language? I totally misunderstood "functional".

Guys, try a library - I mean the building where you go and read. It really worked. I did my first hour session and I read more stuff about perl (and wrote down some gems, and learned some wild wild new tricks) inside 1 hour than I could have forced myself at home (near my computer, particularly) in about 3 weeks of a 4week-training stint i might manage once every 2 years!

I'm going back tomorrow morning for a 2 hour session. This is fitness for the mind, it is.

any perlsters, check this one out...

\G - "matches where previous m//g left off" - I never knew that one. Imagine the extra versatility of my structures now - I can make some reeeeally funky stuff just from that one extra trick I picked up, but that's just one scrawl on a page covered in em. I also stopped to investigate 25,000 year old namibian cave art, and will have to investigate further online shortly, but that's more for an arts forum!

in my fat office building i get soon, i shall have a large fantastic room with river views and a cafe with free coffee, tea and juice, which will be the library, a strict silence rule, proper library, where i can spend most of my time... it'll be so laid back and mellow and fine and profitable

I think the newest and best languages are ruby script and rails. but maybe i'm wrong

Where is Tripy when we need him? Isn't Python a multi-threaded Object-Oriented language? I totally misunderstood "functional".

Geez, I missed that one..
To answer your question, yes, python is object oriented and (in cPython, the C based implementation at least) thread-safe.

But I honestly don't get it with all this "functional programing", and as far as I understood Nullpointer explanations, I don't think python woould enter the functional programing family.

To answer your question, yes, python is object oriented and (in cPython, the C based implementation at least) thread-safe.

But I honestly don't get it with all this "functional programing", and as far as I understood Nullpointer explanations, I don't think python woould enter the functional programing family.

I wasn't actually suggesting Python belonged to the category of languages that Nullpointer was describing. I was responding to the earlier suggestion that Object Oriented languages might be going out of style, due to poor support for multi-threaded processing environment, or at least a multi-core one.

I'm not sure I have the foggiest idea what that means, so was hoping maybe you would. I remember, some time ago, that you had mentioned completing your first multi-threaded Python app, and thought maybe you could shine a light on this.

I am interested in application scalability, as it applies to the web, at least. The reason this interests me, is, what if I create an online application in PHP that turns into a huge user community with 100's of thousands of visitors, or even 1 million+ every day? Will I be able to deal with the increased load without understanding how multiple processors work in conjunction with each other when traffic scales way up? Is it even important for me to understand this?