Hello everyone.

I'm an up and coming web/database developer. I'm closing in on my completion
of learning HTML/CSS. I want to be a very effective web/database developer so
I've asked around and came up with a curriculum. Actionscript is in that
curriculum of languages I plan to learn.

My ultimate goal is to get into php, mysql, perl...more database languages,
but I also wanted to be able to develop exciting pages as well. So my
question is if learning the language behind flash (actionscript) should be a
priority on my list. What would be the difference in learning the language vs.
just buying the flash program and learning to use it? Is that the route I
should go, considering the fact that I plan to do more database design than
anything?

What are your opinions?

As far as I know, action script can only be used into a flash container.
So, it makes it unusable for anything else than flash.

I'd say, focus on a widely used server side language.
PHP is good, and have a lot of documentation available.

In the same time, learn SQL. It's the common language used to query a database, and even if there are little differences between databases, the query are most of the time built the same way.
Usually, a server side language goes in pair with a database, so it just make sense to learn them at the same time.
Try to really grasp the concepts of tuples, singularity, the indexes and the constraints.
They will help you to plan your applications before you just run into the wall face first. Many web developers don't know much of SQL. And believe me, a nicely coded PHP script can be ruined by a bad DB design.

Then, once you feel that if you have an obstacle in those languages, you will be able to find a way to avoid them (be realist, you cannot know how to do anything), go on javascript.
It's the less essential language for now, and even if it can be a real plus to your user interfaces, it won't be necessary to realize an application.

As for perl, leave it.
It's was widely used in CGI interfaces some years ago, but it's not really something actively used. It's more of a legacy language that is still there because "it just works", but stick to php/asp/jsp/cold fusion/whatever alien technology to the new realizations, except if there is a real good reason not to.

LayneMitch,


I would personally reconsider your list of languages that you chose to learn. This is my personal preference and I believe it would save you more time and make you a better server-side and database designer.

First off, you said you want to do both (DataBase and Server-Side). In that I would definitely recommend ASP.Net 3.5. The reasons are that you have a long list of languages to learn and you will have to keep up with all of them if you want to be fluent in them. With ASP.Net 3.5 they came out with something called Linq to SQL, what does this mean? It means you can program your SQL Server in C# (Almost just like JavaScript) or in VB.Net. So in the long run all you have to learn is 2 languages. Instead of learning JavaScript, PHP, and SQL (You cut out SQL).

* One thing you have to know is that most computer companies hire one programmer to do the server-side stuff and another to do the SQL Server, this time is now coming to an end due to Linq to SQL, SQL will now become a language that you wont have to program in. And trust me, ask some experienced programmer that do both Server-Side and SQL, they will tell you nightmare after nightmare about trying to connect them both.

Second with Flash. I would recommend using Silverlight the reason for this is that you will have a language line up that has been totally designed with one company. This means that all the languages are on the same page, all the programs for the languages complement each other and all in all you will have to learn a total of 3 languages instead of 4. That can do the stuff of 5 languages (C# can do JavaScript and windows applications, and C# can do SQL)

*Also note that .Net is cross platform, so it is like PHP in that sense. Also ASP.Net will be very easy to understand because it is very similar to HTML in syntax where as I believe PHP is along the lines of C++.

* For an awesome book on ASP.Net 3.5 I would 100% recommend ASP.Net 3.5 Unleashed by Stephen Walther. It is code heavy but, it will take you through every aspect of ASP.Net 3.5, Linq to SQL, ADO.Net, and ASP.Net AJAX. And the code in the book is now written in C# so at the end of the book you will be an expert ASP.Net and C#(Look at C# as JavaScript that can do more) programmer.


Hope this helps a little,
-Shadow9997

SQL will now become a language that you wont have to program in. And trust me, ask some experienced programmer that do both Server-Side and SQL, they will tell you nightmare after nightmare about trying to connect them both.

I'm curious about your sources on that one.
I'm a oracle DB programmer, the official JS specialist and debugger of my company and as I'm working on oracle, I use pl/sql and XML as a server side platform with SL for displaying it in the users browser.
I work in a university, and the application I work on is used by more than 12'000 peoples regularly.

I honestly don't see how SQL could be cut out, and most importantly, I don't see why.
If you are talking about auto-generation of queries, I would be strongly suspicious to it.
In sql like in any language, you have many ways of doing 1 thing, and the most obvious is not always the best.
I'm strongly opposed to what you said on that ground, and fundamentally opposed to see the SQL part of a db application cut out like that.

I would recommend using Silverlight the reason for this is that you will have a language line up that has been totally designed with one company

This is relative to personal taste.
I would not bargain upon silverlight now. The simple fact that MS had to redesign it site just to boost it's usage is not an encouraging sign, in my opinion.
Beside, there is a lot more resources, tutorials and demand for Flash/Flex/openLazlo than silverlight. It's the rule of the market.

Also note that .Net is cross platform, so it is like PHP in that sense. Also ASP.Net will be very easy to understand because it is very similar to HTML in syntax where as I believe PHP is along the lines of C++

I cannot say anything about .Net, as I only see it from far (2 or 3 meters, across another desk) but what you say about PHP is misleading.
The core of the engine is C++, ok, but it's all.
The fact that many of the core functions have a syntax that tends to C is a plus in my opinion.
They are clear, easy to grasp, and the PH documentation site is one of the best I've seen in almost 10 years of programming.
I find javaDoc to be a headache in comparison.

Finally, I'd like to point out for LayneMitch that in my opinion, what shadow9997 said is true (even if I'm not 100% with him) but mostly for the enterprise world.
And not the 2/3 peoples enterprise, but more the 30+ peoples enterprise.
So, if what you want is to be able to do yourself what you want, go the way it seems you the easiest and straightforward.

Originally Posted by tripy

I'm curious about your sources on that one.
I'm a oracle DB programmer, the official JS specialist and debugger of my company and as I'm working on oracle, I use pl/sql and XML as a server side platform with SL for displaying it in the users browser.
I work in a university, and the application I work on is used by more than 12'000 peoples regularly.

I honestly don't see how SQL could be cut out, and most importantly, I don't see why.
If you are talking about auto-generation of queries, I would be strongly suspicious to it.
In sql like in any language, you have many ways of doing 1 thing, and the most obvious is not always the best.
I'm strongly opposed to what you said on that ground, and fundamentally opposed to see the SQL part of a db application cut out like that.

Well, I am not saying it will cut it out over night. It just gives ASP.Net users a easier way to do things without coding in SQL (Or a whole TON less). In ASP.Net 3.5 they added some new codes for the C# and VB language to expand to do Linq to SQL.They are still "Mind Bending" but easier than learning both languages. This information I got from ASP.Net 3.5 Unleashed by Stephen Walther (Great Writer and a well known ASP.Net MVP).

Here I will type out a section of the book that goes over Linq to SQL briefly:

Of all the new features introduced in .Net Framework 3.5, LINQ to SQL is the most significant one. Indeed, it might reresent the biggest change in the way applications interact with databases since the introduction of SQL.

A vast chasm separates the way developers work with transient application data and the way developers wok with objects and properties (created with either C# or VB.Net). In most databases , on the other hand, we work with tables and columns.

This is true in spite of the fact that our applications and our databases are used to represent the very same data. For example, you might have both a class and a a database table named Product that represents a list of products ayou sell through your website. However, the languages we use to interact with these entities are very different. The C# and VB.Net languages are very different from the SQL language. Larger companies typically have different developers who specialize in C# or VB.Net, on the one hand, or SQL, on the other hand.

A huge amount of developer time is spent performing brain-dead, tedious translations between the object and relational universes. I cringe when I think of the number of hours I've spent declaring classes that contain a one-to-one mapping between properties and database columns. This is time I could have devoted to going to the park with my children, seeing a movie, walking my dog, and so on.

LINQ to SQL promises to finally allow us to put SQL to a well-deserved death. Or more accurately, it promises to make SQL a subterranean language that we never need to interact with again (SQL in plumbing, and I am not a plumber). This is a good thing. Death to SQL!

Then it goes on to tell how C# and VB.Net and the .Net Framework has some new mind bending features that will enable us to use LINQ to SQL.

Originally Posted by tripy

This is relative to personal taste.
I would not bargain upon silverlight now. The simple fact that MS had to redesign it site just to boost it's usage is not an encouraging sign, in my opinion.
Beside, there is a lot more resources, tutorials and demand for Flash/Flex/openLazlo than silverlight. It's the rule of the market.

Very true it is of personal taste. Flash and Silverlight do basically the same thing. I was pointing out that you could have all of your languages of one company and that will give you programs that will interact with each other much more easily (VWD Express, Expression, ect,ect.).

Originally Posted by tripy

I cannot say anything about .Net, as I only see it from far (2 or 3 meters, across another desk) but what you say about PHP is misleading.
The core of the engine is C++, ok, but it's all.
The fact that many of the core functions have a syntax that tends to C is a plus in my opinion.
They are clear, easy to grasp, and the PH documentation site is one of the best I've seen in almost 10 years of programming.
I find javaDoc to be a headache in comparison.

I have just heard that C++ was hard to learn. I like the JavaScript and HTML type syntax, so it was plenty easy for me to learn ASP.Net and C#.

Originally Posted by tripy

Finally, I'd like to point out for LayneMitch that in my opinion, what shadow9997 said is true (even if I'm not 100% with him) but mostly for the enterprise world.
And not the 2/3 peoples enterprise, but more the 30+ peoples enterprise.
So, if what you want is to be able to do yourself what you want, go the way it seems you the easiest and straightforward.

Yes, I will agree with tripy on that. Also another thing that got me to do ASP.Net is if I had to say, "Which langauge will last longer?", the chances are that Microsoft will always be around. I am not saying PHP will die out, but if you had to bet on one or the other I would put my money on Microsoft. If you still prefer PHP you can code PHP into the
.Net framework so you can still take advatage over that , but I don't know much about PHP so I don't know how you would do it.

-Shadow9997

I Agree that SQL can be complicated sometimes, but its mostly when the db schema has been misconcepted that the queries become hard to manage.
And as cumbersome that it can be, many techniques exists to allow you a simple 1on1 mapping of a db field and a class member.
But this goes beyond the scope of this post.

I have just heard that C++ was hard to learn. I like the JavaScript and HTML type syntax, so it was plenty easy for me to learn ASP.Net and C#.

I never did c++, only C, but I have always heard that C++ was a real nightmare compared to C.

Nevertheless, C is plain simple and straightforward (except maybe for the pointers and some tricks like that, bu it's out of context here(